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Archive 2014 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?

  
 
brett maxwell
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


Rumors are picking up for a D800s with one of the primary differences being a small raw format as we've seen on the D4s. There's clear demand for the option of smaller raw files, especially from wedding photographers and others that shoot thousands of frames in a day.

But is Nikon's new small raw format really a killer feature?

If I understand correctly, it drops the resolution to 1/4 (4mp for D4s) and the size to about 1/2, vs. a 14 bit lossless. And it seems to come with some editing challenges. If my math is correct, that means the file sizes are the same as a full-res 12 bit lossy compressed. I've done pretty extensive testing with the different compression formats, including pushing and pulling exposures 5 stops in LR, and I was amazed to find that the difference is minuscule between 14 bit lossless and 12 bit lossy.

So is Nikon's new small raw format in any way better than 12 bit lossy raw?



Jun 05, 2014 at 12:25 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


I don't see Nikon's small raw all that useful, esp. now that LR has the Smart Preview feature.


Jun 05, 2014 at 01:01 PM
James R
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


I have the D4s and have not found a reason to use it. Talked to Canon guys and they don't use sRaw either. People wanted sRaw and now that it is available they realize the cost of a small file. I'm sure there are people using it, but, haven't read or heard from them.


Jun 05, 2014 at 01:25 PM
Picture This!
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


From rawdigger on sRaw. Based on this, it seems to be more hype and marketing gimmick

It contains not RGB but YCbCr data much like a JPEG;
The data is 11-bit;
The tone curve is applied to the data;
The in-camera white balance is applied to the data;
The pixel count is 4 times less than with regular NEF files;
The color information is shared between two adjacent pixels (in other words, chroma is recorded for each other pixel);
The file size is insignificantly smaller than full resolution 12-bit lossy compressed NEF;
Compared to a regular NEFs the data needs additional processing (linearization) while converting it to a TIF/JPEG, that may cause additional problems during the conversion (see Study 3 below) as well as some additional computational errors;
There is some loss of color accuracy in shadows, which negatively affects the usable dynamic range if color accuracy is important (see Study 2).



Jun 05, 2014 at 01:33 PM
mshi
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


brett maxwell wrote:
Rumors are picking up for a D800s with one of the primary differences being a small raw format as we've seen on the D4s. There's clear demand for the option of smaller raw files, especially from wedding photographers and others that shoot thousands of frames in a day.

But is Nikon's new small raw format really a killer feature?

If I understand correctly, it drops the resolution to 1/4 (4mp for D4s) and the size to about 1/2, vs. a 14 bit lossless. And it seems to come with some editing challenges. If my math is correct, that means the
...Show more

shooting jpeg is better if you're not interested in 90% of data that 36MP sensor is capable of.



Jun 05, 2014 at 02:43 PM
CanadaMark
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


IMO it isn't going to help many people out on the file size front. Not only is storage extremely cheap these days, but a computer that can rip through D800 files is also relatively inexpensive. Also, as you say, the size savings compared to even a 12 bit raw aren't that big (again, IMO).

The problem with these sRAWs is that it's not really RAW. It's 11 bit data that doesn't contain RGB data like a RAW, but rather YCbCr like a JPEG. Dynamic range is lower as well. A tone curve and white balance are applied in-camera, cooked into the file. 12 bit Lossy RAW should definitely be better than sRAW still. Personally I would never use sRAW, I'd probably just use JPEG if I didn't care about data loss, but some people may find it useful.

I'm excited for the (rumored) D800S with D4S AF, and slightly higher FPS. Should make it just about the perfect camera for me.



Edited on Jun 05, 2014 at 03:13 PM · View previous versions



Jun 05, 2014 at 02:51 PM
hijazist
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


I don't think that sRaw is the main selling feature of the D800s as implied here, although it is a feature many users were asking for. The D800s is supposed to have a one stop improvement in ISO performance, better AF performance, higher FPS, Expeed 4, in addition to the sRaw and other small improvements.

These are all evolutionary improvement of things that Nikon users were complaining about in the D800(e). I see more improvements than D3 --> D3S



Jun 05, 2014 at 02:54 PM
CanadaMark
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


^^^ I *think* the ISO improvement will just supposed to be in JPEG, if it's due to the new Expeed4 processor rather than an updated sensor or electronics. Fingers crossed it's in RAW though!


Jun 05, 2014 at 03:14 PM
OccAeon
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


hijazist wrote:
I don't think that sRaw is the main selling feature of the D800s as implied here, although it is a feature many users were asking for. The D800s is supposed to have a one stop improvement in ISO performance, better AF performance, higher FPS, Expeed 4, in addition to the sRaw and other small improvements.


I'm most hoping for an improved live view implementation. That is the biggest thing that has held me back from getting a D800.



Jun 05, 2014 at 09:10 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


OccAeon wrote:
I'm most hoping for an improved live view implementation. That is the biggest thing that has held me back from getting a D800.


+1

Besides fixing LV, I hope they accomodate 3rd party focus screens.



Jun 05, 2014 at 11:12 PM
James R
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


wayne seltzer wrote:
+1

Besides fixing LV, I hope they accomodate 3rd party focus screens.


Pretty sure that won't happen.



Jun 05, 2014 at 11:17 PM
blutch
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


snapsy wrote:
I don't see Nikon's small raw all that useful, esp. now that LR has the Smart Preview feature.


Can you explai what the Smart Preview feature is in LR and how it applies in this conversation, Snaps? This is the first I've heard of it.... thanks

B



Jun 05, 2014 at 11:58 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


If you want raw format then sraw is not the way to go, at least not as implemented.

More seriously, you're bound to wish you'd used full resolution on some of those shots instead of 1/4 resolution, and it will be too late by then.

With modern computers and storage (both bigger and faster) there is far less impact from 36Mpx images than there might have been several years ago.

On balance, I reckon it would be a feature that I would never use except for things that absolutely definitely do not need 36Mpx, such as copying documents for conversion to searchable pdf files, and there isn't enough of that anyway.

- Alan




Jun 07, 2014 at 04:35 AM
Alan321
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


snapsy wrote:
I don't see Nikon's small raw all that useful, esp. now that LR has the Smart Preview feature.

blutch wrote:
Can you explai what the Smart Preview feature is in LR and how it applies in this conversation, Snaps? This is the first I've heard of it.... thanks

B


A Smart Preview in Lightroom is a DNG version of a raw file that has a few compromises to make it smaller, such as lower resolution and lossy compression and not the highest quality setting. It can be "edited" in Lr even if the larger original file is off-line and those edits will automatically be applied to the original raw file when it does become available.

The downside or smart previews is that the raw files have to be available for the smart previews to be built, and so there is an initial processing, time and storage penalty.

However, it is a great feature for laptop users who can take a smaller version of their large library with them in a format that is good enough to view and to work with while away from home base. New images added while on the road will usually be the full raw format and will have to be manually copied back to the home-base library storage.

It is not as good as a proper small raw format would be - one that aggregated pixels in some way without applying most of the unfixable settings such as white balance, picture style, etc. - but probably better than accidentally or deliberately using small raw when you should have used big raw.

- Alan



Jun 07, 2014 at 04:48 AM
blutch
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · D800s rumored - Is the D4s small raw really a killer feature?


Thanks Alan. I get it now.

B



Jun 07, 2014 at 09:53 AM





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