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Archive 2014 · Commercial Sales?

CGrindahl
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Commercial Sales?

I'm aware of this paragraph in the Rules for the Buy and Sell board...

Commercial sales are not allowed. The Buy and Sell board is dedicated to photographers selling their 'own personal' items. The board moderator will evaluate every 'suspect' listing and decide if it's commercial or not.

I'm curious what folks think about that rule. Does it make sense? It would seem that if commercial sales were happening there would be much more gear available for all of who might be in the market. Of course, I don't expect B&H, Adorama or KEH would rush to FM if that rule were rescinded. We'd likely have more of what appears from time to time on the thread... a reseller who has access to cheap gear he offloads here. We're not looking whether gear comes with a warranty when we're shopping on the Buy and Sell board. If we want that we go to authorized dealers.

Generally, it is pretty easy to spot resellers. They're the ones with multiple listings and who seem able to sell the same lens or camera multiple times. They're likely selling all camera systems as well. Do we care they find their way to the Buy and Sell board? If we don't welcome their presence, do we report them to Fred? Do we confront the person? Or do we just take advantage of a good deal. I'm curious what people think...

Jun 04, 2014 at 03:54 PM

Jefferson
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Commercial Sales?

… However it’s Fred’s House …

Jun 04, 2014 at 03:59 PM

CGrindahl
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Commercial Sales?

I'm not thinking of inciting mutiny but I am curious about what folks think on the subject. I know Fred posts links when new items of gear show up, links to commercial houses that no doubt compensate him for the referral. I like that. I want Fred to be very successful so this website can continue to offer a home for those of us who enjoy hanging out here. But sellers pay to list items and buyers are looking for deals. Where is the problem with commercial sales? Inquiring minds...

Jun 04, 2014 at 04:09 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Commercial Sales?

CGrindahl wrote:
I'm aware of this paragraph in the Rules for the Buy and Sell board...

I'm curious what folks think about that rule. Does it make sense? ...

I think it makes perfect sense and it should not be changed.

I expect B&H, Adorama, and KEH would be front and centre on B&S. Any "active" sales venue is well-worth exploiting. They already advertise here. Of course, they would be joined on B&S by a plethora of legit, semi-legit, and totally bogus 'vendors', and it would be a nightmare. It would be like eBay with no buyer and seller protection (and that's no picnic, even with 'protection'). It would be like buying online from Craigslist, sight-unseen; you could use PayPal "for an item" payment, but that won't help you much, if the vendor is...

...gone.

All of the "commercial gear" is currently available (and very easy to find) outside of FM. I'd like to see it stay that way.

Jun 04, 2014 at 04:09 PM

CGrindahl
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Commercial Sales?

What about folks who aren't major vendors but who clearly are not selling their own gear? Should we report them to Fred if we have suspicions?

Jun 04, 2014 at 04:11 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Commercial Sales?

CGrindahl wrote:
What about folks who aren't major vendors but who clearly are not selling their own gear? Should we report them to Fred if we have suspicions?

Don't sweat the small stuff.

Jun 04, 2014 at 04:29 PM

CGrindahl
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Commercial Sales?

That's what I was looking for. You're content with the rule and see its benefits but can wink and nod when it doesn't get out of hand. I'm quite comfortable with moral relativism myself but I am curious if others feel the same way.

Jun 04, 2014 at 04:36 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Commercial Sales?

As long as we can agree on what's real and true, then everything will be fine.

Jun 04, 2014 at 04:43 PM

Danpbphoto
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Commercial Sales?

I am content with the rule BUT the definition of "commercial" is very vague(in the rule) and is not restricted to businesses in the definition of said word.. The word "business, aka B&H, Aodorama et al, are businesses in that sense of the word and are commercial.

And "commercial sales" is even more vague.
"Commercial sales as a term that has various definitions. Most commonly commercial sales is defined as the act of selling a product in return for money in a commercial environment. My words...B&S is a commercial environment right? ''Commercial sales can also refer to a job description in which a person sales the product.:"

Websters definition of commercial(sales) is this:
"related to or used in the buying and selling of goods and services. : concerned with earning money. : relating to or based on the amount of profit that something ..."

There is a "gray" area here where I find that, by this and many other definitions, on the B&S board, I would state that many are "commercial" and not related to a business in the corporate sense of the word..

I saw nearly zero sellers on the B&S posting not photos or indulging in discourse for many years. It is still that way to some extent. Until Fred recently initiated new rules it has changed somewhat.

But as stated, it is up to Fred and the "mods" to determine if people buying & selling more than normal is defined by their rule.

Is this making sense

Dan

Edited on Jun 04, 2014 at 05:08 PM · View previous versions

Jun 04, 2014 at 04:51 PM

CGrindahl
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Commercial Sales?

jcolwell wrote:
As long as we can agree on what's real and true, then everything will be fine.

Now that is the rub... finding out WHAT is real and true...

Jun 04, 2014 at 05:00 PM

CGrindahl
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Commercial Sales?

Dan, I've no idea what you're talking about...

You must be a lawyer...

I'm kidding... what struck me in the rule is that sellers are supposed to be selling their own "personal gear." I know there are folks who frequent this website who have very deep pockets and who churn through gear at a fast pace. But I also know that those doing so are photographers first. The buying and selling is secondary to their work with a camera. No matter how many pieces of gear they sell I don't think there would be a problem by definition or otherwise.

But it is hard to image a seller selling a piece of gear and then two months selling the same item and then two months later selling another one. Or the person who is selling a great number of items from multiple systems? Pockets that deep? Perhaps, but then perhaps they're simply a reseller. Do we care? Is that commercial or like the stay at home mom who has a business selling used clothes on E-Bay?

Rules are meant to be broken, or so I've heard and in fact witnessed in my life. Of course, I got quite a few speeding tickets when I was a youth so breaking rules can have consequences. Yet, I've broken the speed laws many more times than I've been given tickets for doing so. I just learned to keep one eye on the rear view mirror...

Jun 04, 2014 at 05:08 PM

Danpbphoto
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Commercial Sales?

CGrindahl wrote:
Dan, I've no idea what you're talking about...

You must be a lawyer...

Dan

Jun 04, 2014 at 05:21 PM

anthonysemone
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Commercial Sales?

well, hell, here's my .02 pfennig: The quasi-commercial resellers are easy to identify: high end gear, multiple listings of high end gear, repeat listings of high end gear. Easy to check out to see who they are: their listings run multiple entrees in row. To believe that these guys are selling their own "personal gear" is like believing that a certain arshole in chief knows his butt from a hole in the ground.

It apparently doesn't matter to Fred because it's easy for him to see who these folks are. It's his site, he can do with it as he chooses. I just stay the hell away from those guys. Even so, that only reduces the available purchasers by an n=1 and w/ over 275k members, utterly irrelevant. It does frost my arse, however, that these guys - and in the spirit of 'inclusivity' - gals, are milking FM.

I hope that helps you, Curtis, to know where I'm coming from.

Jun 04, 2014 at 05:41 PM

anthonysemone
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Commercial Sales?

It just occurred to me that this phenomenon of quasi-commercial resellers seems to be minimally present on www.rangefinderforum.com. Stephen charges $$ to make a FS post. Fred could generate a whole lot of bucks if he did that.

Jun 04, 2014 at 05:45 PM

CGrindahl
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Commercial Sales?

Tony, I never expect you to be anything but forthright and clear. Message received.

I guess this is the way that "little white lies" are excused. I'm certainly not one to argue that only the "real and true" should rule, since it is actually very difficult to ascertain what is real or true. Invariably, the only reference we have is between our ears and often what resides there is merely a collection of ideas picked up along the way that have little to do with truth or reality. Fundamentalists are ALWAYS right...

That said, Fred is a smart man and he certainly understands what is happening on the Buy and Sell forum. Some battles are worth engaging in, some are best left alone. I guess as I've been saying the challenge is in knowing which is which. We can let Fred figure that one out on this count.

Jun 04, 2014 at 06:17 PM

anthonysemone
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Commercial Sales?

Indeed so, Curtis. I've only been around here half the time you and others have been, but in that time, listening to you, Will, Jim Wilson and the other savvy folks, it gets pretty easy to separate the wheat from the chaffe. Sister Mary David taught me many years ago to "know when to fold 'em"

A lesson that hopefully in my fading years I'll have more opportunity to practice, challenging though it may be.

Jun 04, 2014 at 06:28 PM

ronfronberg
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Commercial Sales?

At least in the state of CA you are suppose to get a resale license and report/pay taxes on sales to CA buyers, if you sale 3 or more times in a year. This would include eBay, yard sales, etc.

Jun 04, 2014 at 09:28 PM

CGrindahl
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Commercial Sales?

I can imagine Fred doesn't want to be the gatekeeper for the State of California and I don't expect we'll see Jerry Brown checking out the Buy and Sell board any time soon...

I think we're all safe from the long arm of the California Franchise Tax Board. Can't blame them for trying but tax avoidance is a favorite American pastime, right up there with baseball...

Jun 04, 2014 at 10:01 PM

Paul Mo
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Commercial Sales?

CGrindahl wrote:
Can't blame them for trying but tax avoidance is a favorite American pastime, right up there with baseball...

And fair enough too considering how it is spent.

Jun 06, 2014 at 12:29 AM

stingray0104
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Commercial Sales?

I think the "no commercial sales" rule upholds the "by photographers, for photographers" spirit of Fred's forum, in the sense that people are here first and foremost for photography-learning, teaching, sharing, etc.

Allowing commercial for-profit sales into the mix would taint that ideology and take away from the character of the forum. Regardless of the financial ramifications, I think that this character is worth preserving...

Jun 16, 2014 at 09:55 PM

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