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Archive 2014 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)

  
 
wolfloid
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


I'm very seduced by the idea of a Leica Monochrom, either this model, or the next one that will be based on the newer M240 body. I can wait. I have a whole range of Leica and Voigtlander lenses from my days shooting with M6's. So for me the cost would be body only.

However the A7 cameras are also interesting. I realize that they probably only work well with M lenses of 40mm or above, and that I might need other solutions for anything wider. I have the 35/1.4 Asph, which I've heard works reasonably well. If it is not good enough then I could buy the Zeiss 35/2.8 and get autofocus as an alternative. Otherwise I already have all the OM wide lenses that I might need.

As I see it, the advantage of the A7 cameras is that I could use zooms and telephotos and AF when I want, would not need an external viewfinder for wides (good), can check for critical sharpness on the modern screen, can use the flip up screen for more discrete shooting on some occasions, and finally, would be able to use the various colour channels in conversion to B&W.

What I lose is the beautiful rangefinder viewfinder for those focal lengths I use most of the time (35/40/50), any extra resolution/sharpness/accuity shooting straight into B&W might give, avoid having to use an EVF (I hate it on my X100s) and the ability to shoot all my rangefinder lenses without an adapter, which keeps the size down.

Having never used a Sony A7(r), I would like to ask those who use both types of camera, what are the ergonomic differences. How would you compare handling each camera for use as a reportage camera?



May 27, 2014 at 05:07 AM
Beni
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


You might want to try the EVF in person, it's very different to that in the X100s.


May 27, 2014 at 05:16 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


The A7(r) has too many problems imho. That is why I sold it after less than 2 months of usage. Some of the problems that bugged me the most:

- the sensor cover not only killed the peripheral quality of many RF lenses, but even with native lenses, caused strange halos and ugly bokeh in the image periphery.
- the files are not very flexible (due to the raw compression to 10bit) and there are several kinds of related artifacts.
- definitely not the best b/w conversions.
- ergonomics are quite below standard, and very frustrating, even infuriating, at times.
- the shutter sound got me in trouble a few times, almost in physical danger.
- the build quality feels like a cheap plastic toy. It does the job, but there is no joy in using it (compared to a Leica M).

On the other hand, some of the positive points:

- fantastic colors.
- fantastic high iso performance.
- the EVF is one of the best and is built in. Manual focus with RF lenses is ridiculously easy.
- cheap.



May 27, 2014 at 05:18 AM
Bijltje
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


I have both the A7 and Monochrom.

Both are very different camera's in use and output.

The A7 is very automatic and easy to use. I have the sony 55/1.8 with it and prefer that lens on the A7 above my 50 cron. The leica lenses feel limited on the A7 because of the minimal focus distance and manual focus. The camera really feels like its made for AF lenses.

My other leica lenses (18mm, 28mm and 35mm) don't work correctly on the A7. The only leica lens I do enjoy using on the A7 is my 90mm lens.

Settings on the A7 is very different from the MM or M9. I really don't like the aperture setting on the camera instead of the lens. With using MF lenses this is however not a problem.
Further the camera feels much more modern. Big screen, fast menu ect.
Build isn't up to the leica for sure. It feels much more plastic trough the zeiss 55/1.8 feels very solid.



The Monochrom is a totally different camera. Much harder to get good pictures with. Very simplistic layout with an small screen. It feels just like a analog M camera.

In use its also more like using an analog camera.

Overexposed images can't be rescued in post processing so you really need to watch out for that. Further base iso is 320 so on a bright day you have to use ND or color filters just like in the film days where you had 400 asa as a standard.
In post processing it isn't possible to simulate a colorfilter so you will need real filters to get those effects.

The files from the MM are simply amazing.

Ralph Gibson using the MM instead of b/w film tells enough


I personally would not wait for a next MM. The current version feels great as it is and now even comes in silver. There is really nothing I miss on the Monochrom.
Further there are no signs of a new model. The M230 rumor turned out to be the steel 101 version of the Monochrom.

Overall, the Monochrom is limited but does extremely well in what it does. Black and white rangefinder photography.
The A7 is a more modern camera which is very good overall.



May 27, 2014 at 05:40 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


Bijltje wrote:
My other leica lenses (18mm, 28mm and 35mm) don't work correctly on the A7. The only leica lens I do enjoy using on the A7 is my 90mm lens.



Can you please elaborate on this point? What exactly doesn't work correctly? I might be interested in the future to get Leica lenses for my A7R, so it would be good to know issues upfront. I heard about the issue with rangefinder wide angle lenses (18 mm) on the Sony A7 cameras due to the thicker glass on top of the sensor, but this shouldn't be a problem at 28 and 35mm?



May 27, 2014 at 06:24 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)




retrofocus wrote:
Can you please elaborate on this point? What exactly doesn't work correctly? I might be interested in the future to get Leica lenses for my A7R, so it would be good to know issues upfront. I heard about the issue with rangefinder wide angle lenses (18 mm) on the Sony A7 cameras due to the thicker glass on top of the sensor, but this shouldn't be a problem at 28 and 35mm?


It's a problem starting from 50mm and gets worse the wider you go.

By the way, the A7 and A7R share the same sensor cover thickness. The glass is different to replicate a pseudo-AAless effect, just like with the Nikon 800E.



May 27, 2014 at 06:49 AM
wolfloid
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


- ergonomics are quite below standard, and very frustrating, even infuriating, at times.

Thanks Edward for your interesting reply. This is what I expected even just from reading specs. I've heard about slow start up time, and it being made worse by people feeling that they need to turn the thing off to save the alredy poor battery power. Is there anything else that I need to be aware of?



May 27, 2014 at 06:59 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


edwardkaraa wrote:
It's a problem starting from 50mm and gets worse the wider you go.

By the way, the A7 and A7R share the same sensor cover thickness. The glass is different to replicate a pseudo-AAless effect, just like with the Nikon 800E.



Thanks for the reply - but from other posts I know that the problem only exists below 28 mm. It has to do with the refraction angle when the light from a wide angle lens hits the glass surface. This effect is less severe to non visible (as mentioned ) if you go to longer focal lengths. Maybe someone else can clarify who used/uses rangefinder lenses on the A7 series.



May 27, 2014 at 07:02 AM
Bijltje
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


retrofocus wrote:
Can you please elaborate on this point? What exactly doesn't work correctly? I might be interested in the future to get Leica lenses for my A7R, so it would be good to know issues upfront. I heard about the issue with rangefinder wide angle lenses (18 mm) on the Sony A7 cameras due to the thicker glass on top of the sensor, but this shouldn't be a problem at 28 and 35mm?


Others might be able to tell more about the technical background of the problems.

What I notice is blurred edges with these lenses (18/3.8 SE ASPH, 28/2 Summicron ASPH, 35/2 Summicron ASPH). I know from use with my M9 and MM that these lenses give sharp images edge to edge from wide open. With the A7 the edges are blurred even stopped down.

With the 18mm its a large part of the image which doesn't solve when stopping down. The 28's edges keep blurred until f/5.6 or f/8 and the 35 needs f/4 or f/5.6.

I would not recommend buying them only for the A7 or A7r since they can't perform at their level. A cheap SLR lens might give better results. There are some leica lenses which do work properly with the A7(R) like the longer (75, 90, 135) lenses and the WATE (16-18-21 Wide angle tri elmar-M). My 90 summarit for example works great on the A7.


Zeiss announced to be working on a manual focus set for the A7/ A7r (FE mount). Nothing clear about these yet but I think these will be a great solution instead of rangefinder lenses.



May 27, 2014 at 07:04 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


wolfloid wrote:
Thanks Edward for your interesting reply. This is what I expected even just from reading specs. I've heard about slow start up time, and it being made worse by people feeling that they need to turn the thing off to save the alredy poor battery power. Is there anything else that I need to be aware of?


Don't want to change to main focus of this thread, but I disagree about the ergonomics of the A7 series. To me it is one of the best cameras I ever used regarding ergonomics, I find the button layout on top of the camera very convenients with exemption of the C2 button location. I would agree that the electronic menu structure can be improved, but I got used to it. A function to turn off the EVF or display would be an additional plus, too.



May 27, 2014 at 07:07 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


wolfloid wrote:
Thanks Edward for your interesting reply. This is what I expected even just from reading specs. I've heard about slow start up time, and it being made worse by people feeling that they need to turn the thing off to save the alredy poor battery power. Is there anything else that I need to be aware of?


You're most welcome! Yes, I forgot about the start up time. Turning the camera on isn't too bad actually, but waking it up when it goes into sleep mode can be frustrating. It may take anywhere between 3 to 10 seconds, at least with my A7. Otherwise I think it has all been covered



May 27, 2014 at 07:08 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


retrofocus wrote:
Don't want to change to main focus of this thread, but I disagree about the ergonomics of the A7 series. To me it is one of the best cameras I ever used regarding ergonomics, I find the button layout on top of the camera very convenients with exemption of the C2 button location. I would agree that the electronic menu structure can be improved, but I got used to it. A function to turn off the EVF or display would be an additional plus, too.


Have you ever used a Leica M?



May 27, 2014 at 07:09 AM
Bijltje
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


wolfloid wrote:
Thanks Edward for your interesting reply. This is what I expected even just from reading specs. I've heard about slow start up time, and it being made worse by people feeling that they need to turn the thing off to save the alredy poor battery power. Is there anything else that I need to be aware of?


Startup time can take a while indeed. But this is only after not using the camera for a while. Turning the camera off and on during photographing doesn't take much time at all. This was fixed in the latest firmware update.



May 27, 2014 at 07:10 AM
wolfloid
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


I personally would not wait for a next MM. The current version feels great as it is and now even comes in silver. There is really nothing I miss on the Monochrom.

Dank u wel Bijltje, the reason I'm tempted to wait is mainly because of poor battery life. I currently use a Canon 5DII and I'm used to not thinking about it. I also use an X100S and it really gets on my wick that I have to manage my four batteries endlessly to make sure I don't run short on a trip or while I'm out.

I've used M6s for years and never had a problem with viewfinder calibration, but I understand it is much more critical with digital rangefinders and I would like the convenience of being able to check calibration with live-view, which is not possible with the current Monochrom. Having a larger screen, faster start up time, better buffer, better viewfinder and quieter shutter all seem important to me.

As far as I understand it, Leica Rumours is still adamant that a new Monochrom will be announced at photokina and that the silver Monochrom is just a stop-gap model. If that remains the case then waiting seems to make sense to me, unless we think that 18mp CCD is better than 24mp CMOS, which I see no reason to believe.



May 27, 2014 at 07:11 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


retrofocus wrote:
Thanks for the reply - but from other posts I know that the problem only exists below 28 mm. It has to do with the refraction angle when the light from a wide angle lens hits the glass surface. This effect is less severe to non visible (as mentioned ) if you go to longer focal lengths. Maybe someone else can clarify who used/uses rangefinder lenses on the A7 series.


Please read what Robert said. We use different lenses and brands and the poor performance is consistent. I would not use the A7 with any RF lens below 50, and even with a 50, there is a clear loss of performance.


Edited on May 27, 2014 at 07:12 AM · View previous versions



May 27, 2014 at 07:11 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


Bijltje wrote:
Others might be able to tell more about the technical background of the problems.

What I notice is blurred edges with these lenses (18/3.8 SE ASPH, 28/2 Summicron ASPH, 35/2 Summicron ASPH). I know from use with my M9 and MM that these lenses give sharp images edge to edge from wide open. With the A7 the edges are blurred even stopped down.

With the 18mm its a large part of the image which doesn't solve when stopping down. The 28's edges keep blurred until f/5.6 or f/8 and the 35 needs f/4 or f/5.6.

I would not recommend buying them
...Show more

This is exactly the answer I was looking for, thanks for the clarification! I was unaware that the issue is even visible up to the 35 mm FL. A friend of mine uses the Leica 50/2 on his A7R without any issues (no blurred edges). But this is the only direct experience with Leica lenses on the A7 series I had so far. Yes, then I seem to be better off using my decent third party and FD wide angle SLR lenses on my A7R.



May 27, 2014 at 07:11 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


edwardkaraa wrote:
Have you ever used a Leica M?


In fact I wish I would own one! I used one for two hours at a Leica booth during a photo expo. Really nice camera indeed! I definitely liked the IQ. I do a lot of B&W work but mostly coming from my IR-converted DSLR camera. So far I couldn't justify the price for a Leica M for my personal use.



May 27, 2014 at 07:14 AM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


wolfloid wrote:
Thanks Edward for your interesting reply. This is what I expected even just from reading specs. I've heard about slow start up time, and it being made worse by people feeling that they need to turn the thing off to save the alredy poor battery power. Is there anything else that I need to be aware of?


edwardkaraa wrote:
You're most welcome! Yes, I forgot about the start up time. Turning the camera on isn't too bad actually, but waking it up when it goes into sleep mode can be frustrating. It may take anywhere between 3 to 10 seconds, at least with my A7. Otherwise I think it has all been covered


Just FYI, Sony updated the firmware that addressed the startup time in March. It is significantly faster now after the update.

Edited on May 27, 2014 at 07:15 AM · View previous versions



May 27, 2014 at 07:14 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


Wolfloid, you don't need LV to check the RF accuracy. I had an M9 for 2 years and it was very easy to check by taking a test shot and enlarging. Btw, neither my M9 nor my current M suffered from calibration issues.


May 27, 2014 at 07:15 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Leica Monochrom v Sony A7(r)


AGeoJO wrote:
Just FYI, Sony updated the firmware that addressed the startup time in March. It is significantly faster now after the update.


Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the new FW since I sold my A7 late February.



May 27, 2014 at 07:16 AM
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