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Archive 2014 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.

  
 
JonPB
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


Is it unrealistic for me to be disappointed that a black & white picture, printed by Bay Photo, came back with a green tinge?

I'm passionate about my photography, which leads to overreacting when things don't go as expected, which I want to avoid here if possible. I am following it up with them, but I want your opinions on the matter. Has anyone else had this kind of experience? Any tips or tricks to avoid this in the future? Is this the simple reason that my local shop costs over twice as much, and why (I believe) some folks offer grayscale cartridges for inkjet printers?

Thanks!

Jon

Edited on May 19, 2014 at 01:17 PM · View previous versions



May 16, 2014 at 09:09 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


If you're sending a neutralized RGB file to them where R=G=B and they're sending you back a green print, then they're having an issue with their printer calibration, printer profile or processing line, assuming it's an RA-4 chemical process. You should be able to easily get very neutral looking black and white prints using inkjet or chemical printing assuming that the process control in under control. You're not overreacting at all. What do they tell you? And I would ask where in their quality control process does it become okay to send you green prints. And they might be blue next week and red the week after.

This IS one of the reasons people buy their own printers - to have control over the entire process, but you have to be making enough prints in order to make it worth the while.



May 16, 2014 at 11:50 PM
redcrown
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


A couple suggestions...

First, get a confidence check on your own vision. Show the prints to some people you trust and ask if they see a color cast. Find some teenagers, they have better eyes.

Second, try to do a measurement. Take a pic of the pics and include a valid gray card in the image. Set white balance on the gray card and then measure the tones in the pic image. How close to equal are the RGB values? Less than 3 points is probably OK. Shoot in diffused natural light (5000k-6000k cloudy), and shoot out-of-focus to blur any texture in the print. Include a "true" B&W print in the test image if you have one.

Third, order a print from a lab that produces "true" B&W prints. MPIX offers true B&W. Several others too. I don't think Bay Photo has that option.

I had 20+ years experience doing wet darkroom (film) B&W so I was super sensitive to color casts in B&W prints from "color" digital images, both on inkjets and from labs. When I started digital 10 years ago, this was a big problem and led to the emergence of 3rd parties offering black/gray ink conversions (and other solutions like custom profiling). Labs had similar problems back then too.

But in the last 5 years, inkjet printer makers have come a long way in solving that problem. Labs have also made big improvements. I don't use Bay Photo, but I'm surprised that a lab with their reputation can't make a neutral B&W print. I've ordered B&W prints of neutral sRGB images from EZprints (Smugmug) and Mpix and found them "acceptable" neutral.



May 17, 2014 at 12:40 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


A variance of three points from true neutral RGB would be very very visible, especially from the midtones on up. You need to start with a dead neutral file and go from there. The color of the paper base and whether it has optical brighteners can also affect the perception of neutrality in the highlights.


May 17, 2014 at 12:51 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


This is a bit more complex than it might sound, and a whole slew of variables might be at work here.

Papers have color qualities. This is apparent if you view so-called black and white prints on different papers side by side. Some are warm, some are cool, some are closer to neutral. In addition, the viewing light can make a difference, especially in the color of the "black" in the black and white image. This issue is related to something called metamerism failure—it used to be a tremendous problem with black and white (and to a lesser extent, color) inkjet prints. It is much less of an issue today, though it hasn't always been completely tamed. (The newest printers and inks handle it pretty darned well.)

There is also the issue of whether your file was actually black and white or whether it contained a color cast of its own. As other pointed out, you should be able to check the image, both in individual areas and overall, to see that the levels of R, G, and B (red, green, and blue) are equal.

If you haven't already done so, I would contact the print service to ask them about the results that you see. They can certainly check the RGB balance in your file, and they can explain some of the other issues. It is also possible that a problem print escaped their notice, in which case they will probably work with you to make it right.

Good luck,

Dan



May 17, 2014 at 09:35 AM
JonPB
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


Thank you all.

There were three prints: one in full color, one split tone B&W, and one true B&W (where, for all pixels, R=G=B). The true B&W is all I'm looking at for now; the split tone doesn't look right, either, but between my calibration and that of a pro photo service, I'll trust theirs more.

The B&W does appear to be well printed under direct sunlight, LEDs, and compact flourescents. The green hue shows up under tungsten filament bulbs as well as in shadow. Curiously, the tinge is worst at a particular angle, which is when looking slightly up at it. But slightly up and in shadow is where the print will mostly be viewed, and it is green enough for me to liken the scene to The Matrix.

Probably just an unfortunate confluence of variables, then.

Still exchanging emails with Bay Photo; I'll follow up here when things are finalized, for better or worse.

Again, thanks for sharing your perspectives!

Cheers,
Jon




May 17, 2014 at 04:01 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


Jon,

Are these chromagenic prints - that is, chemically processed RA-4 process prints? If so, then there should be less metamerism - where the prints look different under different lighting, than in an inkjet. In the old days, and it's been a LONG time since I've made prints at a lab, we used to add one point of red and one point of yellow to the neutral and that would often be enough to mask a slight shift, but I also remember making a thousand black and white Chromira prints of Philip Bailey for his black and white headshots, and all I did was make a custom profile of the printer and print them. Everyone was amazed at how neutral and great they looked. But again, it all comes down to process control and the accuracy of their profiles.



May 17, 2014 at 05:53 PM
JonPB
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


Peter,

I have no idea what process they used. It is printed on Kodak Endura paper, if that helps.

My local lab printed a nice copy of the same image--only at 15x30" rather than 6x12"--on Epson paper. They cost over twice as much and aren't as convenient; but, they're good people, it's a shop I want to support, and the results are excellent. I suppose now I know that high volume isn't the only reason that the online shops are cheaper. :-)

Cheers,
Jon



May 17, 2014 at 06:13 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


Kodak Endura is an RA-4 chemical process. You're at the mercy of their calibration and profiles, unfortunately. It's not that it can't be done, it's that it takes more consistent monitoring on the part of the lab to keep everything in line. Where some labs might run a calibration on their printers once a day, the better once will do it several times a day to determine the drift pattern during the day. I would always have the run a calibration just before they printed the profile target and then recalibrate just before running my job. There's still the consistency of the chemical process line, which can vary as well. Jeez, I even remember making some 40x40 inch prints where they didn't turn off the automatic replenishing for the RA-4 line and the color shifted from one side of the print to the other, because the chemistry was being altered during the processing of that print. Part of all this is understanding what processes are being used and the limitations of each process. If nothing else, this has been educational.


May 17, 2014 at 06:22 PM
JonPB
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


Peter Figen wrote:
If nothing else, this has been educational.


Absolutely. It has been educational both from my interactions with the print shop and from your comments. That colors can shift during a single print is surprising, initially, but then it makes sense. The number of things that have to go right for a print to come out properly is simply staggering, much like our cameras. Yet, the majority of the time, they do come out properly.

That black & white would be harder to print than color simply hadn't occurred to me. I've never done printing myself, and I never had any problems with metamerism when I did B&W in the darkroom. :-)

I'm still disappointed that this isn't a viable option for me. Ordering online and shipping to my door would be easy to get used to. I'm especially glad that I didn't drop-ship this print; nothing replaces inspection with my own eyes. The flip side is that this is a good reason to continue patronizing my local shop, which I'd hate to see go out of business, but probably would if more people bought their prints online.

Cheers,
Jon



May 17, 2014 at 06:56 PM
JonPB
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


To follow up--

The good point: Bay Photo support is responsive on weekends. We've exchanged several emails since Friday, which I didn't expect, and each email was signed with the same name, so it may even have been the same person who tracked my issue.

The bad points: well, everything else. Some of the email replies were so disconnected that I would have failed it on a Turing test.

What I’ve learned is that Bay Photo will blame its customers and then argue technical minutia with them before considering that perhaps there was an error with the print itself. They told me that the B&W file that I uploaded had not been fully desaturated; I pointed out that it was a grayscale file, where every pixel had values R=G=B; their reply was that RGB files are not actually greyscale.

To me, even if the pseudo-grayscale RGB file somehow acquired increased G values between my computer and their printer, and this could be avoided in the future--and even if their printer calibration was off and they send me perfect reprints at no cost to me--it is clear that achieving the desired results with them is not worth the hassle.

This was a cheap lesson that will help me avoid the potentially costly mistake of doing time-sensitive or paying-client business with Bay Photo.

I would strongly discourage anyone from using them for B&W prints, even toned prints.

Regards,
Jon



May 19, 2014 at 01:04 PM
JonPB
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


Final (?) update--

They send me an unsolicited, but free, reprint. This one is tinged blue.

Regards,
Jon



May 23, 2014 at 06:27 PM
Ho1972
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


I've used Bay in the past and had good results, especially their metal prints. The only B&W I had printed came back without any issues. Sorry to hear they weren't quick about owning up to their error and that the redo was also flawed.

I've been seeing ads for Whitewall labs and have heard a good thing or two about them. Might be worth a try.



May 23, 2014 at 07:16 PM
JonPB
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Bay Photo: black & white prints with unwanted color.


As far as I can tell, I drew the short straw when it came to customer service. I've been a service manager and I know that there's only so much you can do to ensure that your people are always on the ball. Other comments around the internet suggest that they're generally better than what I experienced.

The quality with which they pack and ship, the speed and hours at which they replied to questions, and the fact that they reprinted for free and hand-checked (the "expedited" invoice was hand-signed) the print tells me that most of their methods appear to be rock solid.

That two prints have unwanted color tones tells me that the RA-4 process must be quite difficult to calibrate properly (as Peter Figen talks about above) and also that Bay Photo isn't a good choice for fine art work. On closer inspection, I also notice that their print seems to have a graininess to it that my other shop's inkjet print doesn't have.

C'est la photographique vie.

Cheers,
Jon



May 23, 2014 at 07:58 PM





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