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Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)
  
 
JaKo
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


1. Never started a thread on this forum
2. I am very fond of Walter Mandler's design 'look'
3. This thread would bridge a few other threads like Leica-M, Leica-R or other Leica on mirrorless/DSLR, but would narrow down search for 1950-1980s Mandler's images so cross-posts are welcome
4. FF preferably for a very simply reason: no one wants to see '2001 Space Odyssey' on 'This Movie was Modified to Fit Your Screen' 3:4 format
5. Anything goes; film(big +), digital/numérique, SLR, DSLR, RF, FF mirrorles, you name it! - as long as it was shot with Mandler's glass on FF
6. Corrections, edits, suggestions are more than welcome


Now, problem #1; what to start with!







Edited on May 17, 2014 at 04:11 PM · View previous versions



May 16, 2014 at 04:13 AM
JaKo
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


Actually, here is a dedicational post ; last Christmas a friend of family celebrated her winning fight with cancer. Not so, it appears.









May 16, 2014 at 04:19 AM
JaKo
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


iN-bOX







Edited on May 16, 2014 at 08:05 PM · View previous versions



May 16, 2014 at 05:15 AM
Alpha_Geist
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


Cross post from A7(r) Images Thread


Machan - Leggo my LEGO by Alpha Geist, on Flickr
A7 w/ Leica 90mm Summicron-M Pre ASPH
~f/3.5 1/250 100



May 16, 2014 at 05:39 AM
Bijltje
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)




Leica M9-P with 50mm summicron (current version)

If I'm not mistaking a Mandler design?



May 16, 2014 at 06:16 AM
LightShow
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


EULOGY FOR DR. WALTER MANDLER
May 10, 1922 – April 21, 2005
http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00G/00GLuV-29878084.pdf

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Walter_Mandler



May 16, 2014 at 01:04 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


Jack, so sorry to hear that about your friend.
Nice images here everyone!



May 16, 2014 at 04:45 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


First, my condolences on the loss of your friend, Jack. It's never easy, but it's especially difficult when it feels like the battle should have been over.

It's a good idea for a thread, and I love Mandler lenses. All of my M-mounts and a few of the Rs are his designs. And I feel lucky that I have FF cameras (that don't involve RFs) to shoot them on.

That said, to me this...

JaKo wrote:
4. FF only for a very simply reason: no one wants to see '2001 Space Odyssey' on 'This Movie was Modified to Fit Your Screen' 3:4 format


...is, at best, a weak analogy, and at worst, elitist garbage. The lenses look great regardless of format or sensor size, so dictating that you only want to see them on the format for which they were designed is as arbitrary as saying rangefinder lenses should only be used on rangefinders since that's the camera for which they were designed.



May 16, 2014 at 10:21 PM
JaKo
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


Thank you Brad.

I believe that lenses designed for full frame 35mm cameras were intended to capture info from edge to edge regardless how edges performed comparing to a center of the frame. There had to be a decision made in each design on how to balance center to age performance, how to compromise the good and bad especially at max aperture, giving each lens its specific 'look'.
I feel that cropping out edges with 4/3 or 1.5/1.6 formats strips visible area that designers intended to show. In similar fashion 3:4 TV pan-n-scan format stripped close to half of CinemaScope or Panavision screen display.

You must have a different view so I am open to learn from your elaboration.



May 16, 2014 at 11:03 PM
Picture This!
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


Sorry to hear about your friend Jack.

Nice idea for a thread. I hope to post some pics



May 16, 2014 at 11:21 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



JaKo
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


Picture This! wrote:
Sorry to hear about your friend Jack.

Nice idea for a thread. I hope to post some pics



Thank you Manu,

Yeh, crappy things happen in life. It's a second friend I know that lost to cancer in the last couple of months.
As of now she is doing anything and everything to stay as long as possible with her two young kids and a husband.


Anyhow, I recall you do own few of Mandler's glasses, right...



May 17, 2014 at 12:01 AM
JonPB
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


I like the idea for the thread, Jack, and I hope it takes off.

In the spirit of "show off how Mandler's lenses render," I agree with the limitation to full frame and, furthermore, I think that cropping should be disallowed. (Hah! Here's one time when the term "full frame" actually makes sense!) Mandler's lenses aren't only interesting because they were some of the best lenses of their day in technical terms--though they have since been surpassed--but in how Mandler made compromises between aberrations and throughout the frame to achieve what he did. Of course, it is entirely possible that we'll see that there's no such thing as a "Mandler signature," but getting there would be just as fun as proving it to be a real thing, wouldn't it?

If the masses will tolerate focal reducers, I'd be happy to contribute. Otherwise, I watch with interest.

Cheers,
Jon

PS: I'd enjoy seeing other threads that are dedicated to the exploration of other optical designers, too. Kolsch? Karbe? I know Zeiss has had a few famous names, too--though I don't know their names, because they don't have a thread dedicated to them on the alt forum.



May 17, 2014 at 02:23 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


JonPB wrote:
I like the idea for the thread, Jack, and I hope it takes off.

If the masses will tolerate focal reducers, I'd be happy to contribute. Otherwise, I watch with interest.

Cheers,
Jon

PS: I'd enjoy seeing other threads that are dedicated to the exploration of other optical designers, too. Kolsch? Karbe? I know Zeiss has had a few famous names, too--though I don't know their names, because they don't have a thread dedicated to them on the alt forum.


Dr. Schuster, designer of CY 21/2.8 Distagon and a fabled CY 25 PC Distagon whose lens diagram is my avatar, would be a lens designer worthy of recognition. Instead of using asph lens elements he used many levels of special glass to get rid of aberrations. I wish I could shoot with that 25 PC lens sometime!



May 17, 2014 at 03:12 AM
JaKo
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


JonPB wrote: Mandler made compromises between aberrations and throughout the frame to achieve what he did

wayne seltzer wrote: Instead of using asph lens elements he used many levels of special glass to get rid of aberrations

+1

I will have to check Lens Compendium to find out exactly what year computer aids were used in designing Leica lenses, but surely old 'school masters' had to rely on their practical knowledge and how pleasing the final outcome of their designs look rather than just use a program to develop perfect lenses.

Take acoustics for example. In 1980s Carnegie Hall went its major renovation and according to many the famous, century old, darker/muted Carnegie sound was gone. More ‘modern’ and lively sound, an outcome of computer aided analyses used during reno made old Carnegie acoustic aura available only on old recordings. What a shame!



Back to now days, filtered through Mandler’s glass..


















Edited on May 17, 2014 at 03:35 AM · View previous versions



May 17, 2014 at 03:33 AM
phuang3
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


wayne seltzer wrote:
Dr. Schuster, designer of CY 21/2.8 Distagon and a fabled CY 25 PC Distagon whose lens diagram is my avatar, would be a lens designer worthy of recognition. Instead of using asph lens elements he used many levels of special glass to get rid of aberrations. I wish I could shoot with that 25 PC lens sometime!



I think the designer of Samyang 14/2.8 should be mentioned also (I don't know who). This lens is close to APO quality and it's 14mm!



May 17, 2014 at 03:34 AM
Gary Clennan
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


Great idea Jack! A couple of recent pics with 50cron V4. Will have to dig up some more taken with other Mandler M mount glass.






50cron V4






50cron V4






50cron V4






50cron V4






50cron V4




May 17, 2014 at 04:19 AM
JonPB
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


JaKo wrote:
I will have to check Lens Compendium to find out exactly what year computer aids were used in designing Leica lenses, but surely old 'school masters' had to rely on their practical knowledge and how pleasing the final outcome of their designs look rather than just use a program to develop perfect lenses.


July, 1953, was when the Zuse Z5 was the first commercial mainframe installed in Germany--at Leica headquarters in Wetzlar. ("Zuse Z5," wikipedia.) But Mandler went to Midland, Ontario, in 1954. (Puts, Leica Chronicle, Chapter 18: General Evaluation.) So it may well be that one thing which heavily influenced Mandler's efforts was a friendly competition between Wetzlar, which had a mainframe, and Midland, which presumably still relied upon dozens of clerks with slide rules.

Cheers,
Jon



May 17, 2014 at 04:55 AM
zhangyue
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


Jack, sorry for the late contribution, I am busy recent. But I will slowly upload more pictures to contribute your thread since after going through the list, I found I have quite a few Mandler design, which I don't know before . Though, I am not quite sure I can generalize Mandler design as his lenses have many different character to me based on several I used so far

Start wih 35cron M V1 8 element

with M9


























with M3





















Mainly shallow DOF for rendering purpose, the truth is I use this lens at f8 and below a lot more often, it is a stellar performer



May 17, 2014 at 05:44 AM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


JaKo wrote:
Thank you Brad.

I believe that lenses designed for full frame 35mm cameras were intended to capture info from edge to edge regardless how edges performed comparing to a center of the frame. There had to be a decision made in each design on how to balance center to age performance, how to compromise the good and bad especially at max aperture, giving each lens its specific 'look'.
I feel that cropping out edges with 4/3 or 1.5/1.6 formats strips visible area that designers intended to show. In similar fashion 3:4 TV pan-n-scan format stripped close to half of CinemaScope or
...Show more

Okay. I understand your analogy (Kubric meant you to see the film in a specific aspect ratio, Mandler designed lenses for a specific format), but where I feel that analogy is weak is that Kubric was presenting you with a finished artistic product where Mandler was creating a tool to be used in an artistic or documentarian process. It's respectful to view any film/photograph/painting/etc. as the artist intended, but since a tool is defined by its usefulness, limiting the use of that tool would be disrespectful to the tool and the toolmaker. So not liking pan and scan and saying you can't fully appreciate a lens unless it's used on some approximation of the format for which it was designed aren't really the same thing at all.

You speak to the designers' intent as though Mandler and team expected the full frame to be used at all times, but common print sizes alone would've informed them that aspect ratio wouldn't be perfect for all situations. Their intent was to make the best lenses they could under the manufacturing restrictions they were given that would cover the frame of the cameras for which they were made. How they got used, or what was used of the resulting images, I'm sure they were smart enough to realize was beyond their control. So selecting sensor size of the 135 format (or a close approximation thereof, since the Sony FFs aren't 36x24) as your sole criteria in an effort to honor their designs, and ignoring the cameras they were designed to be used on and the film they were designed to shoot, makes the choice seem especially arbitrary.

So the restriction comes down to your preference, a preference that's obviously shared by other members. And that's fine. It's your thread. But if you want this thread to celebrate Mandler's designs, then I would recommend opening it up to people who have somehow managed to learn to love the lenses on smaller formats. Until then, it's just about how you and the limited group of contributors feel the lenses should be used.



May 17, 2014 at 09:13 AM
JaKo
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Through Walter Mandler Glass (on FF Only)


^^^ Appreciate your input and I respect your opinion on this.
Certainly there is no point to even dispute difference of fractions of a millimeter. I also had no intention to ‘police’ this thread, but I edited the point you referred to while still encouraging posting images taken with FF cameras. You know, occasionally photographers crop their 36x24 images so this goes towards your argument 

I am sure there is a number of great pictures taken with Mandler’s lenses on formats different than 35mm FF so posting them here can be to everyone’s benefit and viewing pleasure.
Looking forward to see your shots here, Brad.


Michael, Gary; thanks for sharing your images.

Gary, congrats on your new 50 Lux-M ASPH! I had my eye on this lens for a while, but given mixed comments on it when used on A7R I reached to few people who have this combo, including FM members and all rather discouraged me from getting it, at least on Sony FF. Bummer!
Still, I haven’t given up on this idea. For now, I just got late 1980s Summicron-M 90, latest version just before ASPH. It was totally unplanned purchase, but I found a brand new copy (not sure if it belonged to a collector or some old stock) with everything in a box, so I couldn’t resist.


Back to images.













May 17, 2014 at 04:43 PM
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