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Archive 2014 · Spruce Flats Falls

  
 
JimKied
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Spruce Flats Falls


I would appreciate any suggestions you folks could give me on this image. I am still struggling to find the correct workflow to put an image on the web. Just so that you know, this image prints well. And by printing well, I mean that it is natural looking, not over saturated, and has believable colors. It may be a little too dark, but that is something I believe I can easily fix.

That said, does this image look natural to you? Is it over saturated to you? Are the colors believable? Is it light/dark enough?

Would also appreciate your thoughts on composition, etc.

Thanks!!
Jim



© JimKied 2014



Edited on Apr 30, 2014 at 06:21 PM · View previous versions



Apr 30, 2014 at 05:17 PM
JimKied
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Spruce Flats Falls


And looking at it on my monitor the way it uploads to FM, it looks pretty ugly. It looks darker, an uglier (colder??) brown, and more contrasty - less details in the shadows. FWIW, I converted to sRGB from ProPhoto and the sRGB version looks fine in Photoshop. But when viewed here (fM) and in other browsers, it looks pretty bad.....

OK - just looked at it on my cell phone (google/chrome) and it looks more like what I wanted you guys to see. So it may be some weirdness about my system/monitor that I need to figure out...



Apr 30, 2014 at 05:24 PM
sbeme
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Spruce Flats Falls


Viewing view Firefox (color managed) on a high quality monitor.
Colors, detail, saturation all look fine to me.
I like being located just above the flowing water with enough movement and blur to make the image work well. Excellent job preserving highlight detail in the falls.
I'd be very happy with this image.
Mind sharing the full EXIF?
Did you use any filters?
Scott



Apr 30, 2014 at 08:17 PM
JimKied
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Spruce Flats Falls


sbeme wrote:
Viewing view Firefox (color managed) on a high quality monitor.
Colors, detail, saturation all look fine to me.
I like being located just above the flowing water with enough movement and blur to make the image work well. Excellent job preserving highlight detail in the falls.
I'd be very happy with this image.
Mind sharing the full EXIF?
Did you use any filters?
Scott


Scott - I used a polarizing filter only. This is a focus stack of two images. I shot at f4 because I was trying to get enough light in to stop leaf motion. It was raining like all get out and windy also. I timed the snaps to try to capture at the least movement times. I was pretty successful, but there is some motion blur in the image. The two images both show a speed of 0.25 sec. Does this provide what you need? Let me know if there is other info you need.

And thanks so much for the feed back. I've been loosing my mind trying to figure out why my monitor does not show on websites what I see in photoshop. I also use Chrome as my browser.

Thanks,
Jim




Apr 30, 2014 at 08:55 PM
JimKied
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Spruce Flats Falls


I twiddled around with the windows 7 color management, and although I do not know exactly what I did, the colors on FM are now suddenly looking a lot closer to what I see in PS6. Now I have a different question. Does the image look oversharpened to you? It looks a little crunchy to me.

Thanks,
Jim



May 01, 2014 at 07:16 PM
sbeme
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Spruce Flats Falls


a little crunchy, but that only tells you about the web viewing
if that is your concern obviously you can dial it down
since you are happy with the print, its probably irrelevant overall



May 01, 2014 at 07:49 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Spruce Flats Falls


Seems to be some magenta cast in the foreground and numerically detectable in the waterfall also.

BTW, is that a turtle in the LLC, or just a rock that looks like a shell? It seems as though I can see the colors of a head barely poking out as well ... or do I just have an overactive imagination today?







May 01, 2014 at 08:13 PM
JimKied
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Spruce Flats Falls


RustyBug wrote:
Seems to be some magenta cast in the foreground and numerically detectable in the waterfall also.

BTW, is that a turtle in the LLC, or just a rock that looks like a shell? It seems as though I can see the colors of a head barely poking out as well ... or do I just have an overactive imagination today?


, definitely not a turtle, but I guess a turtle looking rock.

Rusty - I think that part of it is a color management issue that I have that I haven't solved. I don't know how to explain this clearly, but here goes. When I look at images that other folks put on the forum, they generally look great on my monitor. When I work on one of my images in photoshop (in prophoto space), I get it to a "look" that I want. When I convert it to sRGB, for web viewing, it look very close to the prophoto image IN PHOTOSHOP. When I look at the same sRGB image in another application, including FM, it looks ON MY MONITOR to be more saturated. Looking at this image now on FM, I do see a more reddish (magenta?) look which I took to be more saturated. I feel this is part of the issue and I really do not know how to figure this one out.

And it always amazes me how you guys can say there is some magenta cast or cyan cast, or whatever. How do you see it? I'm not trying to be provocative, I am simply trying lean what to look for. FWIW, I used a levels adjustment layer and adjusted the sliders for each of the RGB colors in an effort to balance the color cast. Before that, in ACR I may have pushed the WB a little to far to warm up the image to offset the coldness of the rainy day. But what things should I look for to make sure the image is not overly one color - in this case magenta. And what is this numbers thing you speak of that you see in the waterfall?

BTW - I like your redo of the image, it looks much more like what I see when I am viewing it in photoshop. What did you do to fix it.

Appreciate any input you can provide. I want to learn.

Thanks,

Jim



May 01, 2014 at 09:41 PM
FarmerJohn
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Spruce Flats Falls


Jim - have you color calibrated your monitor? For low cost hobbyist use I have the ColorMunki Smile (<$100) and I've been very pleased with it. Of course for pro use there are much more robust/expensive tools.

I also noticed the magenta cast that Rusty talks about. It took me a while to learn though. The water looks a little pink colored.The RGB values should show that the red is a little bit higher than the G/B in those neutral areas.

Also - how do you do your focus stacking? Manual or with an automatic blend tool? I've been doing some focus stack experimenting lately myself. Hard to tell at this size, but at 100% I've really been struggling with getting the blend right.



May 01, 2014 at 10:05 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Spruce Flats Falls


JimKied wrote:

How do you see it? I'm not trying to be provocative, I am simply trying lean what to look for.


Great Question ... not provocative at all.

Basically, I just compare my R, G & B values for an area that is supposed to be a neutral color. This can be of a tonal value that is nearly white, gray or nearly black. If you have a known (or desired) neutral, then you can read your R, G & B values to asses which one(s) are high/low.

For instance, an RGB value of 127, 127, 127 would be a neutral gray. If the numbers were 127, 120, 127 then they would be low in green (opposite of magenta) and thus have a magenta cast for a neutral.

The same would apply to say 235, 245, 245 would be low in red (opposite of cyan) and thus a cyan cast, and a 220, 220, 245 would be high in blue and have a blue cast. Likewise, on the shadow end of the spectrum a value of 15, 20, 15 would be high in the green channel and be a green cast ... you get the gist.

What I do is first study the light and the subject matter to assess what I think SHOULD, or I DESIRE for it to be neutral. Then I usually pick four points in the highlights that I want neutral. Often times they four points will not match, i.e. two might be high in green, one high in blue and one neutral or cyan or red or

I use color balance tool in PS (has adjustments for highlights, mids & shadows) to bring the values for the known/desired neutral to match at say 220, 220, 220 or whatever range I'm working in. As I watch the four points, I typically find that I can't get them totally neutral, but three out of four I can usually get within five points of each other ... for me, that's my assessment of which light @ AI/AR is going to be the light I have as my WB.

Then, I repeat for my BB on the shadow ... then back to WB to refine what the BB may have tweaked on a bit.

It takes way longer to explain than to actually do, but once you get the hang of reading your numbers ... then you start to see the casts with your own eyes more as well, but you've always got the numbers to rely on.

Often times though, I can get a scene "neutral" ... and it can look a bit clinical. For those, I just dial back the opacity on the layer to taste (usually around 70%-80%) and kinda "split the diff".

BTW ... I make NO ADJUSTMENTS in ACR ... all in PS with the more refined color adjustment tools.

Anyway, I hope this helps with creating too much confusion.




May 01, 2014 at 10:38 PM
JimKied
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Spruce Flats Falls


I am going to have to research the color balance layer, I've never used it before. And then I will get back to you guys with my results. I do appreciate your efforts to help me out.

Thanks,
Jim



May 02, 2014 at 05:37 AM
envirobob
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Spruce Flats Falls


I was just at Spruce Flats Falls. Quite a hike, huh? I like that you focused staked f4 images for good DOF. I just used f22 when I was there. Good job.


May 02, 2014 at 10:41 AM
JimKied
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Spruce Flats Falls


Farmer John - I used ps6 to stack. Brought in both images as layers. Aligned them. Then blended them. Its all under the edit drop down. Automatically blends the sharpest areas from both images.


May 02, 2014 at 12:00 PM
JimKied
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Spruce Flats Falls


Envirobob - yeah it is quite the uphill climb. Did you notice how close you actually was to the road? That had me laughing. Oh well, I guess they would need to build a bridge to cross the creek to allow a closer hike.


May 02, 2014 at 12:05 PM
JimKied
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Spruce Flats Falls


RustyBug wrote:
Great Question ... not provocative at all.

Basically, I just compare my R, G & B values for an area that is supposed to be a neutral color. This can be of a tonal value that is nearly white, gray or nearly black. If you have a known (or desired) neutral, then you can read your R, G & B values to asses which one(s) are high/low.

For instance, an RGB value of 127, 127, 127 would be a neutral gray. If the numbers were 127, 120, 127 then they would be low in green (opposite of magenta) and thus have a
...Show more


Well, I researched Google and played around with the color balance tool, but I couldn't see how it was affecting the values - it seems more of a tool that you slide the sliders one way or another for taste - and I don't trust my taste. I'm sure I must be doing something wrong, so I need to do more research in that area. Plus, I was not seeing any color tint in my psd file.

But I did notice this. When I converted to sRGB, there is a definite shift. Here is my process for converting to web. I convert to profile (sRGB). Change mode to 8 bits. These two moves created a very slight shift to being more warmer and maybe a little darker. Then I resized to 2/3rds of the way to my 850 pix wide final image. I oversharpen this particular size (150% this time - less than what I did before). This act of downsizing added more warmth (magenta?). After sharpening, I then resized to the 850 wide image shown here. The resulting web sized image is warmer and a little darker than the original. I sometimes translate this to being a little more saturated, but I am going to lean towards just warmer on this particular image. BTW, I used the perceptual rendering intent.

Bear in mind that this happens with every image I down size for web viewing. Does this happen for you guys also? And do you do anything about it before posting? And BTW, here is another version of the image which I want to post up to see how it looks on FM. Appreciate any input you have







May 03, 2014 at 07:10 AM
JimKied
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Spruce Flats Falls


And it goes more warmer and saturated on FM. At least that is the way it looks on my monitor. The clear areas of water are not near as red (magenta?) in my psd file. Nor do they appear that red on the jpg file I uploaded.

I'm beginning to question my color management (I use an i1 display pro on a Dell 2410 ultrasharp). Would appreciate any suggestions.



May 03, 2014 at 07:13 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Spruce Flats Falls


I always "convert to sRGB" and "save as" ... I don't use the "save for web".

Also, are you "converting" or "assigning" to sRGB?
Check your settings on your converting @ perceptual vs. relative colorimetric vs. absolute colorimetric.

When I convert to sRGB (from my calibrated profile) ... I see no difference on my display.
What are your "proof" settings set @ ?



May 03, 2014 at 08:40 AM
JimKied
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Spruce Flats Falls


RustyBug wrote:
I always "convert to sRGB" and "save as" ... I don't use the "save for web".

Also, are you "converting" or "assigning" to sRGB?
Check your settings on your converting @ perceptual vs. relative colorimetric vs. absolute colorimetric.

When I convert to sRGB (from my calibrated profile) ... I see no difference on my display.
What are your "proof" settings set @ ?


I do not use save for web. I convert to sRGB, using perceptual rendering. Are you asking me to switch between the three to see which is best? Not sure I got that part.

I had not thought to check my proof settings. I assuming you mean my soft proof settings, which are set to my printer profile, which is a cannon pixma pro 100. Does that make a difference?

I think you can see here that I am not an expert at things in the color management realm. I appreciate your help.

Thanks,
Jim



May 03, 2014 at 09:09 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Spruce Flats Falls


No expert here either ... but I remember going through the issues. Sorry, that I don't recall the "correct way" of setting things up or what I did exactly.

If you go over the the printing & processing forum ... those guys are the real experts over there and are well versed at helping explain, provide links, etc.

I'd likely steer you down a wrong path without being able to dissect the multitude of potential pieces of the puzzle as well as they can.



May 03, 2014 at 09:54 AM
JimKied
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Spruce Flats Falls


RustyBug wrote:
No expert here either ... but I remember going through the issues. Sorry, that I don't recall the "correct way" of setting things up or what I did exactly.

If you go over the the printing & processing forum ... those guys are the real experts over there and are well versed at helping explain, provide links, etc.

I'd likely steer you down a wrong path without being able to dissect the multitude of potential pieces of the puzzle as well as they can.


That is fine. You have already helped me a lot by just making me aware of the color casts, although I think they are being introduced through the resizing process.

It is important to me to be able to convert to web right so that I get critiques that will help me get better. So I appreciate it.




May 03, 2014 at 10:19 AM
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