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Archive 2014 · Spray and Pray

docsmiles17
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Spray and Pray

Most viewers reading this thread have heard this term and I would like to debunk the negative connotation associated with it. I will take just one example of this technique-- the batters swing in baseball, as to why its utilized

If you are not aware, a great keeper is getting the ball near the bat in the frame. A batters swing takes about ¼ of a sec. and if shooting with with a Canon 1DIV at 10 fps as I do, you get at most 3 frames for the entire swing. Its not uncommon to NEVER get the ball in any frame. I have been shooting baseball for 7+ years and can count on one hand how many shots I have with the bat actually in contact with the ball.

With such a small window of opportunity in a batters swing, the ONLY technique is the 'spray and pray" as you never know what your gonna get until culling.

I am sure there are other types of photography where this technique is utilized and this is just one example of where its beneficial.

Apr 27, 2014 at 12:55 AM

Alexluu627
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Spray and Pray

Spray and prey is good for sports and catching animal, but I wouldn't use it for portraits, fashion, or anything else. I like to shoot like I'm still using film and try to make every shot count.

Apr 27, 2014 at 02:33 AM

Paul Mo
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Spray and Pray

My 1D3 is on full burst, but sometimes I will set my 5D3 to single shot just to slow myself down. But yeah, there is a time and a place for spray and pray - but it is more like spray and track personally.

Apr 27, 2014 at 05:53 AM

sjms
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Spray and Pray

I practiced it a bit yesterday at an Ultimate Frisbee event yesterday in the rain. like in reality you really have a choice at times if you want to get the shot and or shots. what looks like grain/noise in the air is rain.

not edited as i'm still on the road

Apr 27, 2014 at 06:14 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Spray and Pray

A few years ago, I did a group portrait by zooming in to frame the left-most person's head & shoulders, and then panning across the group with my 1DIV going at 10 fps. They'd only seen me use it in single shot drive up to this point. The expressions on the faces of the last few people were priceless.

Apr 27, 2014 at 06:44 AM

Joseph Garcin
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Spray and Pray

While I have never shot MLB, everytime I have shot Spring Training here in Japan, I get at least one third of my shots with the ball within 3 inches of the bat, and several a day with bat on ball (that several include batting practice, but I can usually get at least one a game regardless.) I shoot only in single shot. Yes, I am fooled by the change up just as the batter, but I generally know if I have gotten close. But to not have the ball in the frame for me at all is pretty rare...it has to be one heck of a change up or a massive curve for that.

Just like the batters, you need to shot batting practice to get up to speed, and just like the batters, you will bat just around .300 if you practice a lot and get used to the pitchers. If you don't, and rely on spray and pray, you won't.

So no, Spray and Pray is not the only technique, and the old hands here in Japan tend not to use it. Those guys watch the pitcher just like a batter does and can figure out the pitch from the release. I watched an old guy shoot 3 bats on the ball in 3 consecutive at bats. Single Shot. Easy? No. Possible? Yes. I have seen it.

Apr 27, 2014 at 07:50 AM

chez
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Spray and Pray

Skill beats out technology all the time. Skill mixed with technology is priceless. People think they can buy a 1dx and lay on the shutter hoping they get a good shot out of the thousands they took. Problem here is that you are hoping...which given the once in a lifetime capture is not something I would bank a career on.

Apr 27, 2014 at 08:09 AM

docsmiles17
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Spray and Pray

chez wrote:
Skill beats out technology all the time. Skill mixed with technology is priceless. People think they can buy a 1dx and lay on the shutter hoping they get a good shot out of the thousands they took. Problem here is that you are hoping...which given the once in a lifetime capture is not something I would bank a career on.

....couldn't agree more with you. I have asked many who also shoot baseball and when questioned after an at bat if they got the shot, the usual response is "i Hope so"

Apr 27, 2014 at 12:59 PM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Spray and Pray

People that think they can capture "the moment" during fast action with single shot as often as those using high frames per second are dreaming.

And I guess the majority of pros shooting action in high-speed bursts don't know what they are doing.

Take that a step further and have a look at slow-motion video. I guess you one-shot shooters could also capture all those great moments. In your dreams.

Apr 28, 2014 at 12:00 AM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Spray and Pray

docsmiles17 wrote:
With such a small window of opportunity in a batters swing, the ONLY technique is the 'spray and pray" as you never know what your gonna get until culling.

I am sure there are other types of photography where this technique is utilized and this is just one example of where its beneficial.

You are absolutely correct, but you will still get the one-shot shooters who don't understand the mathematics of probability.

A high-speed camera can capture a bullet entering and exiting a balloon frame by frame. Let us see a one-shot shooter even capture one frame without using a motion sensor trigger.

They will also tell us that the pros covering the Olympics all used one-shot mode to capture all those great moments.

Apr 28, 2014 at 12:17 AM

Monito
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Spray and Pray

Different scenarios require different tactics and different applications of the mathematics of probability. An understanding of the latter shows that there is no "one size fits all".

1. Repetitive actions can benefit from continuous mode shooting. For example, a bird flying beating its wings. It is possible to capture several cycles of the wings in one burst and one shot in one cycle might be the one in perfect pose.

2. Unpredictable actions benefit from continuous mode shooting. These include things like birds of prey attacking targets, and groups of two or three sports players interacting.

3. Predictable single moment actions can benefit from single shot shooting with practiced timing, as Joseph Garcin articulately explains above about batters connecting with the ball.

With bat speeds at 70-85 mph = 100 to 125 ft/sec, consider a field of view containing a six foot batter (vertical aspect) will be four feet wide. At 120 ft/sec, a bat will traverse the field of view in 1/30 sec = 33 ms..

If you are shooting 14 fps on a 1D-X with the mirror locked up (obviously on a tripod), that is 71 ms between frames. Thus spray and pray usually misses the ball entirely, as the OP docsmiles17 reports. It's worse with slower frames per second and with tighter views. Yet the batter is able to hit the ball about one time in three and get very close almost all the time counting fouls and near misses since those are just as good for a photo when the ball is in front of the bat.

Thus Joseph is able to get the ball in the frame most of the time by not using spray and pray. How is this possible? The same way the batter gets wood on the ball or gets very close. By knowing the equipment intimately, especially shutter lag and by knowing the action (sport) intimately (anticipation).

Apr 28, 2014 at 10:12 AM

trueimage
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Spray and Pray

I think the amateurs use this terminology to try and say "if I had that gear, I could do that (or better)" and as an amateur with a good job who has purchased some of that gear, all I can say is:

Skill >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gear

Apr 28, 2014 at 02:01 PM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Spray and Pray

Monito wrote:
With bat speeds at 70-85 mph = 100 to 125 ft/sec, consider a field of view containing a six foot batter (vertical aspect) will be four feet wide. At 120 ft/sec, a bat will traverse the field of view in 1/30 sec = 33 ms..

If you are shooting 14 fps on a 1D-X with the mirror locked up (obviously on a tripod), that is 71 ms between frames. Thus spray and pray usually misses the ball entirely, as the OP docsmiles17 reports. It's worse with slower frames per second and with tighter views. Yet the batter is able to hit...Show more →

And what makes you think the batter watching the ball coming directly towards him is the same as the photographer watching the ball at right angles to its path?

And if the photographer using spray and pray presses the shutter button at exactly the same time as the one using one shot, what is the difference?

Apr 28, 2014 at 03:32 PM

Monito
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Spray and Pray

Imagemaster wrote:
And what makes you think the batter watching the ball coming directly towards him is the same as the photographer watching the ball at right angles to its path?
I don't. It's not. It doesn't have to be. The photographer is not trying to hit the ball with their telephoto lens.

Imagemaster wrote:
And if the photographer using spray and pray presses the shutter button at exactly the same time as the one using one shot, what is the difference?

They would get the same one good shot but the spray and pray guy would get a bunch of other not as good shots that they have to spend time rejecting and deleting. The second shot would have the bat and ball out of the picture because it either connects or doesn't and in both cases the movement is too great between frames.

But that's not how spray and pray is done by the people who use it. They start firing before the ball reaches the plate and let up after three or four or more shots. It's random what they actually get. As the OP says the ball is usually not in the picture.

Apr 28, 2014 at 03:41 PM

ben egbert
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Spray and Pray

I use burst often even for landscapes. It is a good way to bracket shots when in live view. The brackets are close together which helps reduce motion blur or changing light for blends.

I also use it to capture waves in ocean shots. Or when I am shooting for a sunburst and want to catch the sun as close as possible to the magic 1/16 of the sun showing and the rest hidden. (reduces flare and sometimes eliminates it)

Of course I used it for BIF back when I did BIF. I also used it recently at a concert where I was able to capture great expressions on my granddaughter's face as she was singing.

In addition, I take a lot of pictures when doing sunset or sunrise. It changes fast and what looks great may be better later. But if you wait, what is it your waiting for? You never can know other than in some very general way what may come next.

If you can anticipate the best moment and wait for it and are fast enough to get it, my hat is off to you.

You still need to have composition, exposure and focus all worked out in advance.

Apr 28, 2014 at 03:57 PM

arbitrage
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Spray and Pray

Imagemaster wrote:
You are absolutely correct, but you will still get the one-shot shooters who don't understand the mathematics of probability.

A high-speed camera can capture a bullet entering and exiting a balloon frame by frame. Let us see a one-shot shooter even capture one frame without using a motion sensor trigger.

They will also tell us that the pros covering the Olympics all used one-shot mode to capture all those great moments.

Watching more quiet sports like golf and tennis one can play the game of figuring out if it is a 1DX or D4(s) that they hear in the background....fun game....and yes all the pros are using the full 12 or 10(11) FPS all the time.

Apr 28, 2014 at 04:14 PM

philshoots
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Spray and Pray

Interesting comment Ben. Thanks for sharing some of your shooting methods. I'll often use a burst with macro or when the shot has very little DOF rocking in and out slightly to insure I hit the needed critical focus.

Thanks
Phil

Apr 28, 2014 at 05:04 PM

Monito
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Spray and Pray

philshoots wrote:
I'll often use a burst with macro or when the shot has very little DOF rocking in and out slightly to insure I hit the needed critical focus.

Good idea. I should do that when I do macro.

Apr 28, 2014 at 05:06 PM

docsmiles17
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Spray and Pray

Joseph Garcin wrote:
While I have never shot MLB, everytime I have shot Spring Training here in Japan, I get at least one third of my shots with the ball within 3 inches of the bat, and several a day with bat on ball (that several include batting practice, but I can usually get at least one a game regardless.) I shoot only in single shot. Yes, I am fooled by the change up just as the batter, but I generally know if I have gotten close. But to not have the ball in the frame for me at all is pretty...Show more →

My initial reaction to your post was "This smells like total BS and why would anyone ever use single shot for this type of photography". However after re-reading your post a few times, I really appreciate your tone and potentially helping me learn another technique. I should not have said its the ONLY technique. I should have said It is the only technique I have witnessed.

I commend you if you are able to get ball on bat images with single shot consistently and would welcome seeing this technique firsthand as I can't quite visualize how to 'watch the pitcher just lake a batter does and can figure out the pitch..." and then suddenly look thru viewfinder or maybe use remote, live view??.

Apr 28, 2014 at 08:04 PM

xnavyguy
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Spray and Pray

doc....I don't shoot MLB but we do have a lot of the farm teams here in Florida.... I've been going to try to improve my sports shooting technique.... what I've been experimenting with is using two eyes to shoot. I use my right eye for the view finder and my left eye to watch the pitcher.... I pre-focus on the batter and hold it, then (using my left eye) I watch for the pitcher to wind up and release. Then I start to shoot.... I'm still working on my timing but it's really helped a lot.

Apr 28, 2014 at 08:22 PM

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