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Archive 2014 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please

  
 
VanIsle
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


Hi All,

I am just getting back into photography after a 5 year layoff, and I know the game has changed a lot with HDR. I don't have any desire to go down the hardcore HDR trail (and know many debate the realism of heavily processed images, myself included). But I do see how it could lend some value to one of my favorite subjects: landscape photos incorporating the moon.

My experience in the past was that there is a *very small* window each day (generally less than 20 minutes) during which the sky becomes dark enough to provide a moon with nice contrast to the sky, and where there is also enough light remaining on the landscape to include it meaningfully in the shot. Specifically, the day before the full moon at sunset, and the day after the full moon at sunrise. Other similar times near the new moon. The same challenge applies with exposing for sky scenes and trying to get the moon and clouds exposed properly in the same shot.

In this regard, I think HDR might help me, in that I can combine shots so that I can have a more optimal exposure for the landscape (or clouds) at dusk or dawn (which will leave the moon blown out), and a proper exposure for the moon (that will have the landscape too dark).

One of the specific challenges for HDR for my purposes, is the fact that the moon moves very quickly through the frame, particularly when using a longer lens, such that the time between taking the requisite multiple exposures needed for HDR will leave the moon ghosted. I realize there are ways to blend exposures in Photoshop, but my skills with it are not strong, and in the past I had limited success in coming up with something that looks *realistic*.

My desire then for HDR software is one that
- is easy to use, and *not overly time consuming* (this is where PS scares me!)
- will be able to deal with the fact that the moon will be moving across the multiple exposure (and allow me to handle it without an undue amount of processing time)
- will enable me to have images that look realistic, and not gaudy or over processed (I know this is in my hands as well and how I use the software)

Currently I have LR5 and CS6. Maybe they are all I need with some pointers in the right direction? I understand two of the oft suggested programs are Nik HDR Efex, and Photomatix. I have done some forum searching (here for example https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1182024/0). That thread suggested HDR Efex 2, however the current website doesn't clarify version (http://www.google.com/nikcollection/products/hdr-efex-pro/) and it seems like a big package with a bunch of extras I wouldn't need for my purposes. I know they mentioned handling ghosting, but the moon will be a giant white orb when using a long lens - can they handle it?

Sorry to be such a noob. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Here are a few photos from the "old days". Just processed using LR.






























Apr 20, 2014 at 01:57 PM
JimFox
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


Hey Jeremy,

Welcome back! You have some really cool shots here. In regards to HDR, for exactly the reasons that you listed as obstacles, I would suggest not to use HDR, plus the fact that it's often quite difficult to not end up with a shot looking like "HDR"... I personally prefer a more natural look, and in that regards, using simple layer masks in Photoshop is the way to go. Often people get a mental block that it's so difficult, but it's really not and is very simple...

Jim



Apr 20, 2014 at 03:58 PM
Tim ONeill
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


Nik HDR works pretty well for me. I usually don't tone map much with it. It is fast, and you can run it out of Adobe Bridge under the tools heading. I like the Deep presets fairly often. The default conversion is flat. I really don't do any of the tone mapping work in the filter. I tend to use Nik Color, or Topaz Adjust or Clarity to finish the image. Most folks can't tell, unless I get in the mood for some fun. Also, look at Sean Bagshaw's tutorial on the Photo Cascadia site where he will lay out a list of steps to do HDR with Photoshop's HDR program. You will have to do more after the blend, but you will have more Dynamic Range to work with. I shoot in Live View, bracketing -2 +2 and neutral, and expose for the highlights. Sometimes if I need more exposures,I shoot another triple and expose for the shadows. Lots of choices to play with. Have fun.


Apr 20, 2014 at 04:03 PM
VanIsle
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


Jim - Thanks for the welcome and your comments. I agree that I like a more natural look (nothing against HDR, just not usually to my tastes in the typical ways it tends to be used for landscape photos). I understand the basics of what a layer mask is, and what it does, and have spent some time google examples today to look. I even remember trying to use one on some moon photos way back when. I recall the fundamental problems I had were twofold. 1 - Making a selection for the moon was generally easy enough, since it is a high contrast object, but it was getting a realistic blend around the very edge, craters, and the transition with the sky that gave me fits. I guess this is why I have it in my mind that it is very time consuming in PS... making the selections and blending them in a way as to hide them and make it seem natural. I guess this is where I thought HDR software might help make those transitions easy for me. 2. Making those same selections and transitions around the silhouettes between the foreground (i.e. trees in these shots) and the sky.

So Jim, are you telling me there is a way that I can use to learn to blend the two images in Photoshop without spending an undue amount of time selecting these transition areas and getting a realistic result? I have always been willing to learn, so if it is possible, I am willing to put the work in. Do you have any specific websites you could suggest, or google search terms. I spent some time googling layer masks this afternoon, but a lot of the results seemed to get back to a place of time consuming work selecting and masking the transition zones. I greatly value your advice as a forum legend!

Tim - thanks for your feedback as well. Can you comment specifically about the ability to handle the fact that the moon is moving between the exposures?



Apr 20, 2014 at 05:47 PM
JimFox
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


Hey Jeremy,

The easiest mask can take you a whole 5 seconds to make. Start with 2 exposures about 1 to 2 stops difference (depends on what you need).

Starting with an image where you exposed for the highlights. You first get as much DR as you can out of ACR. Typically for me that is 100% with the Shadow slider and 100% whites. I never go more than 25% on the highlights when there are high contrast edges as it can start to halo a bit. Also you can go 50 to 100% on the blacks. Vibrancy about 40, Contrast about 30. Now, you will make 2 exposures from this one, unless you have now gained enough DR, that one exposure works.

1st conversion will be for the sky, so adjust the exposure slider down to get the sky area as dark as you want it. Make a conversion and name it sky (or whatever)

2nd conversion will be for the ground, adjust the exposure back up to brighten up the ground layer to where it looks good, usually within a stop or so. Make a conversion naming it ground (or whatever).

Then go into Photoshop, load both images.

1. Drag the brighter image on top of the darker one while holding down the "Shift" key. (this will automatically center the dragged image)

2. Select the top (brighter layer)

3. Press "Ctrl" + "Alt" + "2" - this will make a selection of the highlights.

4. Press the "Alt" key while clicking on the Create Layer Mask Icon from the Layer pallet (Rectangle with small circle). This automatically creates a Layer Mask for you.

There you go! Instant Layer Mask. Typically, just flatten it, and go on to processing it with contrast, etc. Whatever your normal work flow would be at that point.

Sound good? That's the easiest way to make a layer mask when trying to increase the DR of a scene. It always starts with exposing for the highlights when you shoot. To do other layer masks are almost as easy, but what I described is a first step, and it's what I do if the DR was greater than what my camera could handle or I could recover in ACR.

Jim



Apr 20, 2014 at 09:40 PM
VanIsle
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


Thanks for taking the time to explain Jim. I will try it soon, just waiting for my 100-400 in the mail, hopefully in time for the thin crescents surrounding the upcoming new moon. Bottom line I guess is I need to make sure I get what I need in the camera, and just learn to use LR and PS.

With regard to your technique, I think I will still have some problems where the moon will have moved between images. On my 1.3 crop factor body, and using the 400 + 1.4TC, I needed an exposure time of 1/8s or faster, so still impossible to bracket exposures (particularly when I want time for MLU and vibrations to settle between shots) without the moon moving.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply, it is much appreciated.

I spent a few hours this afternoon googling HDR moon photos, and also just reviewing moon landscapes, and one thing I learned for certain is that no one out there has shown any successful results... at least not without the images looking gaudy and unrealistic. Hopefully I can improve.

The reality is that the best results may just live within the single exposure technique, and leveraging processing that single image to its maximum. The shooting window for optimal exposure of the moon and landscape in these cases is ever so slim... just makes it more "fun" I guess



Apr 20, 2014 at 10:01 PM
JimFox
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


Hey Jeremy,

Give it a try... but for something like a moon that is moving, if you need to bracket, then shoot the shots immediately and I don't think the movement would be seen.

I am not sure what you are shooting with, but with the D800 and now the Sony A7r, scenes that required 2 or 3 bracketed shots, can now be taken with just 1 shot. That's what I suggested to you. With 1 shot of course there is no moon movement. Basically the making of 2 conversions from one raw image is called Double Processing the Raw file. What I gave you was a simple way to make a layer mask and blend those 2 conversions from 1 Raw.

And yes, the window for shooting the moon in the best possible exposure is very narrow, but the chase does add to the fun as you said...

Let me know what you come up with.

Jim



Apr 21, 2014 at 03:16 AM
15Bit
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


I've only really done one serious moon landscape, but i had to run two exposures - one for the main image and one for the moon. And the movement of the moon was enough that i had to shift the moon shot a little in PS to make it line up.


Apr 21, 2014 at 04:35 AM
Bifurcator
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


Yup! You need about 1/100s for a crisp moon shot. But there's no way 1/100 will properly expose landscapes between dusk and dawn. So yeah, they need at least two exposures.




Apr 24, 2014 at 02:50 AM
Monito
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Landscapes w/ Moon ; HDR Software advice please


Make your HDRs, set up all the images as layers in a Photoshop PSD and copy the moon and a bit of sky from one image into all the other images by painting through or copying from the layer below. Then write out each layer as a file and merge the files with regular HDR software (I use Hugin but use masking directly in Hugin or with merged layers output by Hugin).



Apr 25, 2014 at 03:43 PM





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