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Archive 2014 · Why can't we all just get along?

  
 
timbop
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Why can't we all just get along?


Sorry for the gratuitous Rodney King quote, but I had to. The tone at FM's canon forum has taken an alarming direction over the past several years, and I think the negativity has been feeding on itself. When I first joined FM almost 10 years ago, there were so many helpful and informative folks that if felt like a community - and I stayed because I learned a lot without being talked down to or made to feel like an idiot for asking such a basic question. Unfortunately, that feeling seems to be a thing of the past. There are still a lot of helpful and respectful folks still here, but far too often threads take an elitist or dismissive turn - particularly to newbies (and experienced photogs as well) who are simply very enthusiastic and like to talk about gear. For those of who are veterans, we sometimes seem to forget what that was like. This is a forum about Canon gear after all, visited by a vast array of individuals with differing personalities, skill levels, backgrounds, and needs. Having 9735 posts doesn't make you any more worthy to post here than the guy with 1 - nor does it make your opinion any more valid.

Before we post a derisive, dismissive, or overly negative comment, how about we remember what our moms used to say: "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? There's no need to be a keyboard warrior.



Apr 19, 2014 at 09:01 AM
Sarsfield
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Why can't we all just get along?


I must've missed the trouble. Who, where? Just let me at 'em.


Apr 19, 2014 at 09:02 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Why can't we all just get along?


Hi Tim,

I agree with you. I try to play nice. Sometimes, I get into an argument, but I think I'm getting better at recognizing and then I .

One common problem appears to be when somebody makes a recommendation from "out of left field". Many other posters seem to think it's their responsibility to say it's inappropriate, when it's meerly a difference of opinion. Even if it is inappropriate, there's no reason to slam somebody for stating their opinion, when it's offered in a generally positive and helpful manner.

I occasionally call somebody out when I read something that I think crosses the line, and it actually seems to work out pretty well in at least half of the cases. I also don't hesitate to report a post to Fred when it contains crude obscenity or threats of violence.

I used the same King quotation in a thread last year that was on the burn and crash trajectory. That one didn't work out so well.

Anyway, good luck with this.

Jim



Apr 19, 2014 at 09:15 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Why can't we all just get along?


timbop wrote:
Sorry for the gratuitous Rodney King quote, but I had to. The tone at FM's canon forum has taken an alarming direction over the past several years, and I think the negativity has been feeding on itself. When I first joined FM almost 10 years ago, there were so many helpful and informative folks that if felt like a community - and I stayed because I learned a lot without being talked down to or made to feel like an idiot for asking such a basic question. Unfortunately, that feeling seems to be a thing of the past. There are
...Show more

I've felt a bit the same way recently. A month or two ago I stopped visiting the FM forums for a few weeks, after getting a string of nastygram replies to posts.

A strategy for using the "hide me" button has helped quite a bit. When I see a pattern from folks who too often respond to a post on a photographic issue with personal invective or nasty implications about me as a human being I simply hit the "hide me" button. This does not necessarily mean that I never see what they post, since I can still "show" their posts if necessary, but it reminds me to never respond.

I was very grateful a week or so ago when a nasty respons was offered up after I posted something that a reader disagreed with, and another long time and active forum member made a brief and not overly confrontational comment on the person's strange nastiness. (Thank you, jcolwell... :-)

My "vacation" from the forum reminded me that this forum is a very small thing in a very big world, and what goes on here plays a very small role in my life or in my photography. There are nasty people everywhere, and we get to decide whether or not is is worth arguing with them. It usually isn't. They enjoy the nastiness, come looking for a fight, and will always find something bad to say.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Take care,

Dan

(And, yes, I'm not perfect. I can recall things I've written that I could have said in better ways.)

Edited on Apr 19, 2014 at 10:50 AM · View previous versions



Apr 19, 2014 at 09:17 AM
dolina
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Why can't we all just get along?


Or better yet just click "Hide Me" if the username posts are out of order.


Apr 19, 2014 at 09:20 AM
timbop
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Why can't we all just get along?


gdanmitchell wrote:
....
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
..


Awesome quote. I'll have to remember it.



Apr 19, 2014 at 09:28 AM
cameron12x
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Why can't we all just get along?


In the spirit of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

*** Post Deleted ***




Apr 19, 2014 at 09:28 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Why can't we all just get along?


Coincidence is an amazing thing sometimes. In a different venue, earlier this week I had made a conscious decision to be less judgmental about a certain group of photographers (who generally do not participate here) and about a specific photographer in particular. I have a natural negative gut-level response to the work and even the people of that group. Fortunately, I've only shared my negative—and perhaps unwarranted—impressions verbally with some very close friends, though even that was corrosive. (Just last evening I had discussed this situation with someone close to me and mentioned that I was deciding to let my attitude about the group and person go—it wasn't doing anything positive for me or anyone else.)

I started thinking about how that attitude of mine was wasn't helping those "other photographers" and wasn't doing anything for me other than tempting me to be bitter and to look nasty. So I made a conscious decision to acknowledge the positive in what those people (and one person in particular) are doing—e.g. give them the benefit of the doubt.

Lo and behold, I saw a message from one of them between the time of my first post in this forum and the one I'm writing now, in which this very person wrote a very nice note to me about being inspired by something that I have done in my photography!

Yet another lesson learned. And, yes, I need to relearn this and many other lessons continually. :-)

timbop wrote:
Awesome quote. I'll have to remember it.


I first heard it some years back, from an attorney friend who had been doing some wonderful work with a group of young people. The saying beautifully encapsulated the reasons to try to minimize confrontations with people who get pleasure from being nasty. (And to resist becoming those people! ;-)

Dan

Edited on Apr 19, 2014 at 02:25 PM · View previous versions



Apr 19, 2014 at 09:39 AM
gwaww
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Why can't we all just get along?


One only has to read all the Tamron 150-600 strings to see what the OP is talking about. We were told that one person was tired of hearing that it was all about your expectations. Well, I bought the lens the minute it came out and love it. I never have done BIF and wasn't expecting to with this lens. My favorite was the guy that said "I'll probably give it to my wife" (when my wife wants to take photos I give her my best equipment) or he also said "this lens would be good for beginners or semi-serious users". Even after almost 50 yrs of producing weddings, commercial, gallery work, etc. and teaching photography I'm a semi-serious user? I've owned and used 5x7, 4x5, medium format, 35mm and so on. If asked, my wife would probably say I was very serious. This idea that the higher the price of your equipment equates the quality of your work or seriousness of your interest is BS. It seems like the most important part of your kit is your credit card! As I've said before, on the way to shoot a wedding my car was broken into and most of my stuff was stolen. All I had was an old 40d, a Tamron 18-250 and a borrowed flash and everything turned out just fine. But I was very serious.


Apr 19, 2014 at 09:44 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Why can't we all just get along?


Quite amusing to read the grandstanding of one guy. It reminds me of an old Indian proverb:

"Sau chuhe khake billi Haj ko chali" (After devouring 100 rats, the cat goes on a pilgrimage)




Apr 19, 2014 at 09:47 AM
cameron12x
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Why can't we all just get along?


Agreed about the 150-600mm Tamron thread. The amount of condescension from some posters was sickening.

It almost seemed that if you didn't own one of the "big whites" that you couldn't be a good photographer.



Apr 19, 2014 at 09:47 AM
burningheart
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Why can't we all just get along?


Nothing to be sorry about Tim. I find that respectfulness for fellow members at times goes totally out the window.

Too often (and in my books once is too often) some get so bent out of shape if a another persons post does not agree with their own vision of photography be it related to composition, gear, lighting, etc.

They forget to pull their eye away from the viewfinder to see if there is anything they are missing before taking the shot. Instead they go rapid fire/machine gun speed 12pps (12 posts per second) blasting away never taking time to focus on another person's post or respecting their view.

Views can be different just like shooting images from a different angle, lens or even style.

Like Dan I often take breaks from the Canon forum.

One of my favorite places to go is Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread. The people in that thread enjoy shooting with their Leica's they post images and encourage one another in their photographic pursuits. They don't look down on anyone they just enjoy photography. They answer questions respectfully even when a non Leicaphilia asks. I have asked many questions and everyone has been answered respectfully.

So often others bash Leica shooters as elitists and trash anything to do with Leica, yet the people in that thread are the farthest from being elitist they are there to help, share and enjoy their passion of photography. They set a fine example. Something others could learn from.



Apr 19, 2014 at 09:58 AM
Sir_Loin
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Why can't we all just get along?


cameron12x wrote:
Agreed about the 150-600mm Tamron thread. The amount of condescension from some posters was sickening.

It almost seemed that if you didn't own one of the "big whites" that you couldn't be a good photographer.


Agreed! Likewise some folk think that if you don't own a Zeiss (for example), you don't care or don't know anything about imagery. I guess I wasted my money then.

We all have opinions and the last time I looked, most of us live in countries that allow free speech. So everyone please voice your opinion, but don't ram it down our throats, repeat ad nauseam your opinion or get nasty if someone disagrees with you, which tends to happen a lot recently.

Like the OP, I've been on here over 10 years and I've also noticed a change which is a shame. . I just hope it doesn't turn in to the DPReview forums!



Apr 19, 2014 at 10:07 AM
GoGo
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Why can't we all just get along?


Good topic, I agree.

But I like to post here if I can be of assistance, like a lot of other posters I get some down time and when I am not working I like to read about Photography. This is a good place to do that.



Apr 19, 2014 at 10:12 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Why can't we all just get along?


Sir_Loin wrote:
Agreed! Likewise some folk think that if you don't own a Zeiss (for example), you don't care or don't know anything about imagery. I guess I wasted my money then.


"Some" folks also think the moon is made of cheese. Is that the dominant view? I doubt it. It seems like "some" is often used here to set up a strawman to slay and feed one's pet gripe.



Apr 19, 2014 at 10:31 AM
riokid
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Why can't we all just get along?


. . . and I thought we are not in Kansas (dpreview) anymore

Good topic, I agree - as well

riokid



Apr 19, 2014 at 10:34 AM
Chris Fawkes
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Why can't we all just get along?


If two people bump into each other by accident in the street usually both apologise politely then move on.

If the same two people almost bump into each other in their cars the response is somewhat different and almost always the other persons fault.

That barrier of a bit of glass metal and plastic allows people to say what they really think. Likewise being behind a keyboard allows us a level of protection and it is easier to say things we would not say in a face to face setting.

Add anonymity to that and it becomes easier again.

Then there can be sickness. I know I have said things on forums when battling a head flu that I later regretted and may not have said simply had my mood not been effected.

Add things like mental illness, manic depression and the fact that some people are simply sanctimonious jerks needing to position themselves and forums can be quite volatile at times.

No excuses of course but I think that is why.



Apr 19, 2014 at 10:44 AM
RCicala
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Why can't we all just get along?


Thank you all. Nice post and a lot of nice follow up. I totally agree.


Apr 19, 2014 at 11:08 AM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Why can't we all just get along?


I truly enjoy a collegian and fraternal forum, where people from all parts of the world can contribute their views and ask for assistance or feedback. I particularly like seeing examples of work and sharing technical information of how it was done and the equipment used. I also enjoy the practical experience with gear and how it compares to other gear.

I wasn't here at the origin of the forum, so I'll take the general consensus as fact that it was previously larger participation and had a warmer feeling associated with greater technical exchange.

That said, I generally find the forum lives up to the experience I hope to find among photo enthusiasts and professionals.

But there are a few points that cause friction, and I don't know how that is to be avoided in an open forum:

Knee-jerk sniping
Condescending or superior attitude
Exploiting opinion as fact
Pedantic or dogmatic essay responses
Claiming technical experience without using the gear being discussed
Overly prideful or protective of reputation

Although it can lead to escalation, calling a poster out for such examples shouldn't be misinterpreted as the cause of the ensuing dispute. (I've tried "unasked for advice" PMs with mixed results)

I've made a few mistakes, no doubt about it. I've had a number of stated opinions that I've revised, and feel squeamish about what I've said earlier with less experience. And I've been "called out" a few times, and had errors pointed out after I've made them. I figure that's part of the game -- if you open your mouth, you'll eventually say something dumb. Sometimes really dumb!

I find the simplest solution from my end (rather than to stop participating, leave the forum, or start WWIII) is to simply accept my error or accept the blame and sincerely show respect to the person pointing out my mistake or unreasonable opinion. I don't think being overly invested in one's self image is a great idea -- occasional humility goes a long way.

I think a lively forum is a good thing, and we will never get rid of all rancor or arguing. But perhaps we can work on the above points with a little more courtesy and manners. No promises, , but I'll be working on it.

To answer the question: No, I don't think we can all get along. BUT, I think we can all get along well enough to have an entertaining and informative forum.

Anyhow, I'm appreciative of all the friends and interesting people I've met here at Fred's Club.



Apr 19, 2014 at 11:09 AM
garydavidjones
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Why can't we all just get along?


Rudeness has gone viral, exacerbated by economic stress caused by the intentional destruction of the American economy. On our daily bike ride along the beach we witness unruly, nasty behavior. Many in the afternoon appeared to be high on the bike/pedestrian path. The behavior is not only unpleasant but also unsafe. Some riders almost hit you and laugh.

I see similar behavior on this website. Nasty arguments over petty technical issues.



Apr 19, 2014 at 11:09 AM
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