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Archive 2014 · Hard time with clients recently

  
 
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Hard time with clients recently


I have lately been having trouble connecting with a few clients. Two weddings ago, it was a more spontaneous couple and I had trouble thinking of things to do with them. I probably should have kept it simple. Yesterday's wedding, they required TONS of exact posing and, 2/3 through the shoot, the bride tells me they don't really like photos around the greenery and gardens or with the iconic strip buildings (Eiffel Tower etc.) that I thought would make good backdrops and that they would want since they wanted to stay on the Strip for photos. When I saw her guest book with photo collage, none of my photos from their engagement session were there. At that point, I didn't understand why they even hired me at all.

Today's wedding could be a huge PITA because the bride has a 9-page photo wishlist including 64 distinctly different example photos, many of which are highly staged or require various props we probably don't have access to. She is being excessive and I have already told her that I can't guarantee to get those requested photos. Although she seems to be OK with that for now, I know she will be bothered if I don't get at least some of them. I generally discourage shot lists except for formal wedding party/family photos for after the ceremony.

I'm feeling pretty rotten today, it's going to be difficult for me to snap out of it.

I must be doing something very wrong to be getting such a huge variety of different personalities all going for me, because in reality I have definite preferences and a certain kind of group that I click with better than others. It's somewhere in the middle of all these ones I'm getting lately, that being not too much of anything specific, not all spontaneous but some, not all posed but some, and maybe a few shots in the wish list but not that many.

I think my end results have changed a lot in the past few years, going towards a less spontaneous and more planned feel.

Jury is still out on 5d3 performance, but it is different from before I sent it in to Canon.



Apr 14, 2014 at 11:51 AM
ricardovaste
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Hard time with clients recently


1) Is connecting with clients important for your business?

2) Are you over thinking things?

3) Are you setting expectations well? Sounds like you need to re-evaluate this.



Apr 14, 2014 at 12:00 PM
SGallant
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Hard time with clients recently


Hey Joey. When I read things like "going towards a less spontaneous and more planned feel" I think of spontaneous wedding day as fly by the seat of my pants. For me that would never work. I plan wedding days out with couples. I find it's safer than relying on them or some venue since I am the one that has to get the shots my couples want. I don't know about your couples, but mine don't have the experience to build a good timeline.

You need to learn to manage expectations, I brought this up in another thread of yours. I also don't know how you would successfully, consistently hit it off with couples. You are always worrying about some piece of gear or this and that. And yes, that will affect your interactions with couples.

"Yesterday's wedding, they required TONS of exact posing and, 2/3 through the shoot, the bride tells me they don't really like photos". Sorry but this is a miss on your part, why didn't you discuss locations in advance of the day? How does anyone plan for shooting if they don't have an idea where to be?

Honestly this thread doesn't surprise me from you. You are constantly negative. You always have something to complain about. And it sounds like you shoot so many weddings that you don't have proper time to address these kind of issues proactively. Joey you have shot over 100 weddings, you know what to do by now and if you don't, well...

This post was written in a straightforward tone. Certainly not meant to be offensive or mean.



Apr 14, 2014 at 12:08 PM
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Hard time with clients recently


I like to - and normally do - connect with at least 90-95% of my clients.

I overthink things sometimes, and more so when the couple shows absolutely NO spontaneous effort or interest in bothering to naturally interact with each other. Often, I feel like I must be doing something wrong to not be getting them to wake up and just have a little bit of fun.

I think that somehow I am attracting some of the wrong type of clients for me.

I always know the full schedule of the wedding before the wedding day, and I plan my equipment carrying and travel and similar things accordingly. I often assist in helping the brides plan their day before plans are finalized. This is normal procedure for me.

I DID discuss locations with yesterday's client beforehand and they seemed fine with it at the time. We were also limited to a close proximity to a certain resort because they had to be back there for the bride to change dresses and we were leaving separately for the dinner reception. What's more, this client never mentioned that they didn't like that type of environment back when I shot their engagement around Lake Las Vegas - which has a lot of that landscaped greenery, and which, again, at the time, they seemed fine with.

I don't talk about gear stuff when I'm working with clients. I am a completely different person, although still somewhat quiet at times. This is my off-time, work time is my on-time.



Apr 14, 2014 at 12:24 PM
widjayaman
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Hard time with clients recently


I'm sorry you are having a rotten day man, but these sound like issues that are completely fixable or beyond your control, and thus not worth fussing about. I want to certainly encourage you by saying that your problems connecting with clients are certainly not completely your fault.. We all ( I know I do !) often shoot for clients who are not our ideal.

That said, there are many things that can be addressed beforehand in wedding consults (if you're doing that. If not, I highly recommend you do it - talking through the day with the couple, that is) I find the establishing expectations in a non-confrontational way works well for me too before they even booked ( I often jokingly make fun of Pinterest, something like "this is this the time in the consultation where you pull out your binders full of pinterest printouts" usually gets them to chuckle and then it gives me an opening to convince them that's not a good idea.

Our goal is to create images that makes our clients happy right? So all these suggestions are FOR their happiness, so don't feel bad bringing it up beforehand.

I too went through a season when I feel like my stuff was a lot more pose-y than before, I think it's both good and bad. The good thing is that you're now thinking about the shot, how to improve it, how to get the best shot, instead of just winging it. I think an easy quickfix for me would be to start with the posey stuff and then encourage them to have a little bit of fun. Tell the bride to whisper something fun to him while in pose. Tell the dude to tickle her, etc. Then just keep snapping while magic unfolds!

form wrote:
I must be doing something very wrong to be getting such a huge variety of different personalities all going for me, because in reality I have definite preferences and a certain kind of group that I click with better than others. It's somewhere in the middle of all these ones I'm getting lately, that being not too much of anything specific, not all



We all do. And it would be impossible to get clients that match with your preferences 100%. Remember, they book you because they've seen your work ( I hope so, anyway. ) Do you thing, stop worrying, have fun!



Apr 14, 2014 at 01:15 PM
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Hard time with clients recently


I have definitely not handled the pinterest-crazy situation of current times all that well. I would be one of those people who thinks it is generating more unreasonable expectations.

If I was actually any better at posing than I was a year or two ago, maybe the posing wouldn't be such a bad thing. However, I'm still posing on a 5th grade level though I'm currently in 8th grade as a photographer.

This all comes on the heels of me actually enjoying a wedding shoot from last month. It wasn't by any means my best work, but it was the first time it felt rather fun to me again. I 'm not sure why that isn't happening now, in some cases with easier clients (the ones who are more spontaneous). Maybe it's because I'm back to being more picky about facial lighting and all that stuff, where I was not so picky about it (and it showed in the end product) for that shoot.

I don't want to feel like the only way for me to have fun is when I don't care, or to see my work reflect a greater lack of skill when I have fun than when I don't.

I also feel tired and burnt out when I do two weddings in two days, like yesterday and today.



Apr 14, 2014 at 01:24 PM
SGallant
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Hard time with clients recently


form wrote:
I like to - and normally do - connect with at least 90-95% of my clients.

I overthink things sometimes, and more so when the couple shows absolutely NO spontaneous effort or interest in bothering to naturally interact with each other. Often, I feel like I must be doing something wrong to not be getting them to wake up and just have a little bit of fun.


Joey you do over think things a lot IMHO. Spontaneous with a client can also be created, laugh with them, joke with them, play around. Have fun, remind them it's a wedding day. If you are stiff or not interacting with them, then I wouldn't expect much if anything out of the couple.

form wrote:
I DID discuss locations with yesterday's client beforehand and they seemed fine with it at the time. We were also limited to a close proximity to a certain resort because they had to be back there for the bride to change dresses and we were leaving separately for the dinner reception.


It seems DID speak about it wasn't good enough. And honestly like Farid said, a lot of this stuff is correctable, but you have to acknowledge it first.

form wrote:
What's more, this client never mentioned that they didn't like that type of environment back when I shot their engagement around Lake Las Vegas - which has a lot of that landscaped greenery, and which, again, at the time, they seemed fine with.


Perhaps they liked it for the engagement photos but didn't want it for the wedding photos.


form wrote:
I don't talk about gear stuff when I'm working with clients. I am a completely different person, although still somewhat quiet at times. This is my off-time, work time is my on-time.


I never said you spoke to them about it that would be crazy, I said you think about it during the day. I am outdoors and I might want to use AI servo guess I need my Mark II. Although the crazy thought may not be that crazy as I see you actually list your gear out on your About page.



Apr 14, 2014 at 01:45 PM
julieawhitlock
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Hard time with clients recently


Are you maybe not screening them well up front? I can pretty much look at a persons Facebook etc and see if we are going to click. I'm sure it's way harder for you because most of your clients are probably destination so you don't have that local referral, good feeling, "he shot our wedding" trust that someone like me gets. I live in a small province so I have a reputation that buys me instant trust. Maybe it's just that they don't have that so they are trying to make sure they "get what they want". Just a thought.


Apr 14, 2014 at 01:48 PM
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Hard time with clients recently


these are all concerns you should address in your initial meeting, before they even book you. During your meeting you should say, "this is how I work, this is why I work this way. Does this sound like it will work for you as a couple ?" and also tell them "I do not work off of a shot list, I will not replicate pinterest photos" and you can say it in a nice way explaining that its not always best to copy other couples and that you have an opportunity to create something unique for them that might get pinned and copied by other brides and grooms (they will understand this and appreciate it) if not, then you know before booking them that they are not the right clients for you. If I meet with people and I know I am not what their looking for yet they still want to book me I will tell them the date got booked and refer them to another photographer who I know will be a better fit for them. You need to screen clients as much as they screen you, or you will be unhappy and end up hating wedding photography


Apr 14, 2014 at 06:57 PM
D. Diggler
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Hard time with clients recently


form wrote:
When I saw her guest book with photo collage, none of my photos from their engagement session were there.


Ouch.



Apr 15, 2014 at 04:23 AM
D. Diggler
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Hard time with clients recently


SGallant wrote:
I see you actually list your gear out on your About page.


I don't think any of my brides know anything about gear. I actually haven't even had grooms talk gear at all. I think a few years back someone called me on the phone asking what brand I use - something like "do you use Canon?" - but other than that, gear has been a non-issue.



Apr 15, 2014 at 04:36 AM
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Hard time with clients recently


bluerose311 wrote:
these are all concerns you should address in your initial meeting, before they even book you.


Agree with this 1000%

I think this is why my booking rate is so High on weddings. I'm lucky if in a 60-90 minute interview, I talk about price more than 5 minutes in total. I spend 90% of the time discussing what sort of pictures they like, looking at their sample shots they often bring and discussing nearby locations and what opportunities they offer.

There is no way we'd be half way through the shoot and the bride tell me she didn't like greenery or whatever, I'd have made notes on that at the first interview and gone over it again at the confirmation meeting I have 2 weeks before hand.

I have had brides getting married in the Middle of the city bring me shots of couples in fields of long grass and said fine, and where the heck in the city do you know of we could do anything like that shot?? The penny dropped, they laughed and that was it. It's obvious then but if they came back and said " We didn't get the long grass shot" and you said there was no where to do it, firstly they will say that's a cop out and secondly they will say " Well why didn't you tell us that when we showed you?" And they would have a point in my book.


During your meeting you should say, "this is how I work, this is why I work this way. Does this sound like it will work for you as a couple ?" and also tell them "I do not work off of a shot list, I will not replicate pinterest photos" and you can say it in a nice way explaining that its not always best to copy other couples and that you have an opportunity to create something unique for them

I certainly let the couple know my basic style but from there I try to be flexible and get the shots they want. I have been telling them for years, " We can discuss shot ideas from now until the wedding but on the day, there is every chance you may see or think of something that never occurred till then. It's YOUR job and responsibility to tell me about anything you want if you see it on the day. If you come back and say " Geez, I would have liked a shot of XYZ" Then I'm going to tell you it's entirely your fault for not telling me about it at the time. If I can do it I will and if there is a reason I can't I'll explain why". I tell them that is the responsibility I'm giving them on the day.

Being direct in a serious but light-hearted way with people like this shows you are honest and that you can't think of everything but you will do your best to get the pics they want.

I don't refuse to emulate sample pics they give me but I look at more of the mood and the feeling than actually posing the exact pic. I'll explain what I think they are really liking about the pic and offer a suggestion for a shot that captures the essence of it to suit the variation/ clothing/ locations etc we will be at.

I also tell then that I don't guarantee to get any shots like they bring me. I explain that every wedding is different and it's the feel and mood that are important and it's not always possible to copy the elements in a certain shot because they just not be anywhere we can shoot them.

I clearly remember one wedding I did where the couple had very creative ideas but weren't over the top. They simply, unlike most couples, knew what they liked.
On the day the rain teamed down, the wind blew a gale and I had to make up everything as we went. instead of the harbour side park I took them to the shelter of a railway station, a shopping centres and had shots of them on the sidewalk in the middle of the city amongst the crowds of shoppers. Anywhere in the area I could get them under some sort of shelter so none of us got drowned.

I looked at my notes many times through the day and evening trying to create something we discussed and absoloutley nothing had been possible. It was playing on my mind but I also realised I had very valid reasons rather than excuses and there was nothing I could do.

At the end of the night just before the couple left, they came to thank me. They said what a fantastic job I had done and how I got everything they wanted. I was shocked and said, I haven't got a single thing we talked about! It just wasn't possible because we couldn't go to the locations and I had to make it all up as best I could as we went." The couple lit up and said " That is Exactly what we wanted! You captured the day as it happened, you did things we never thought of and turned what we thought was going to be a disaster into pics we are stoked with. We wanted our day as it really was and that's what you have done." He recalled some shots I had shown them on the back of the camera and said how excited they were with them.

They spent a fortune on the album and it didn't hurt when I entered one of the on the fly shots ( of which I took so many that day) in the annual professional photographer associations awards and got a silver medal for it.


If I meet with people and I know I am not what their looking for yet they still want to book me I will tell them the date got booked and refer them to another photographer who I know will be a better fit for them. You need to screen clients as much as they screen you, or you will be unhappy and end up hating wedding photography

One of the most valuable things I have learned in my career as a shooter and worked up the nerve to initially do was when to say NO.

I definitely believe in screening the clients and I drill mine!
If we are on a different page, I straight out tell them so. I don't make things up, I tell them flat out I don't think I'm the right photographer for you based on what you are looking for and the ideas you have. I always leave the door open however and suggest they go see more shooters and that if they don't find anyone more in tune with their ideas, to come back and see me and I'll be happy to see if I can't get a better understanding of what they want and more on their wave length.
I have had a couple of people come back and it turned out we were very much of the same thinking, we were just using different languages to explain it. I put that down to my fault for not listening properly or asking the right questions.

You are the professional and YOU are the one that has done dozens if not hundreds of weddings. The average bride and groom only get married 2-3 times in their lives, so you need to take charge and use your experience to help them and yourself by being able to see the rough ocean ahead rather than the smooth sailing and avoid a shipwreck from happening.
Taking on the wrong clients is always a mistake and a very unprofitable one. They won't be happy, you will spend more time, effort, stress, frustration and money that what it is ever worth just trying to make them pacified enough to go away. Just don't go down that road no matter how much you want the money from the job that won't eventuate anyhow.

I really think rather than not connecting with your clients, You are not actually QUALIFYING them well enough and getting to know their wants, needs and desires. Another thing I tell my clients is " The only pictures I am interested in taking are the ones that are going to make you as happy with your wedding album as you could possibly be."

If the bride doesn't like shooting round gardens ( neither do I!) then you bloody well should have found that out before you are half way through doing what they don't want. YOU have to ask the questions because the only thing a B&G know to ask, particularly if it's their first wedding, is " How much?"
YOU need to find out if you are right for them, if they are right for you, their likes, dislikes and everything else to know what you are going to be doing before the first interview is over.



Apr 15, 2014 at 06:07 AM
D. Diggler
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Hard time with clients recently


glort wrote:
I'd have made notes on that at the first interview and gone over it again at the confirmation meeting I have 2 weeks before hand


Two meetings? Wow, I'm impressed. You must be charging enough to make you feel you're not operating a charity service. Congrats on getting your prices up.



Apr 15, 2014 at 06:48 AM
SGallant
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Hard time with clients recently


I get the occasional random guest that asks about gear. Or like at my last wedding the priest had just gotten a mark iii and wanted to talk about cameras during the ketubah signing. We were like Um father...

D. Diggler wrote:
I don't think any of my brides know anything about gear. I actually haven't even had grooms talk gear at all. I think a few years back someone called me on the phone asking what brand I use - something like "do you use Canon?" - but other than that, gear has been a non-issue.




Apr 15, 2014 at 08:34 AM
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Hard time with clients recently


Yesterday went OK.

Groom mentioned my cameras, and often at weddings one person comments about my cameras, either the brand or the model, which leads to brief discussion.

I don't do many interviews with clients, but when I do it gives me a good sense of personalities. Engagements normally do the same thing for me. But I have grown more lax about finding out some details about the couple beforehand.

Last night's couple was very thankful and kind and the bride hugged me (which often happens) and so on. Believe it or not, I really do get that kind of feedback pretty often.





Apr 15, 2014 at 12:42 PM
widjayaman
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Hard time with clients recently


form wrote:
Yesterday went OK.

Groom mentioned my cameras, and often at weddings one person comments about my cameras, either the brand or the model, which leads to brief discussion.

I don't do many interviews with clients, but when I do it gives me a good sense of personalities. Engagements normally do the same thing for me. But I have grown more lax about finding out some details about the couple beforehand.

Last night's couple was very thankful and kind and the bride hugged me (which often happens) and so on. Believe it or not, I really do get that kind of feedback pretty
...Show more

Sounds like it went great!



Apr 15, 2014 at 12:49 PM
Prettym1k3
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Hard time with clients recently


Joey, I have definitely been there man. I have no advice for you, because I'm still figuring all of that out myself. But I definitely feel for you.


Apr 15, 2014 at 01:20 PM
D. Diggler
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Hard time with clients recently


form wrote:
Last night's couple was very thankful and kind and the bride hugged me (which often happens)


Bride hugs are rare for me. I actually kind of try to avoid it. Could be something about me but I have some history of guys taking it the wrong way when I talk to or touch their women. A little jealousy, I suppose - which is the LAST thing I want my couples to be dealing with on their wedding day.



Apr 16, 2014 at 03:32 AM





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