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Archive 2014 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E

  
 
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


kolen wrote:
Thanks everyone.
I changed my list according to some information and suggestions (Disadvantage in bracket):
1) Nikon 14-24 (Heavy)
2) Zeiss ZF.2 15/2.8 (Expensive)
3) Canon TS-E 17/4 (Expensive, not as wide, and takes more time to handle, cannot be used on my D800E, not sure yet if the Metabone adapter is necessary which makes the combination more expensive)
4) Samyang 14/2.8 (distortion requires a more time consuming work flow)
I think right now my most important question is, do the Zeiss 15/2.8 has the unique Zeiss 3D look that the other doesn't have? Actually from one of the image I shoot with the Nikon 14-24,
...Show more

Metabones (or equivalent) is needed on a7r for tse17. But I would buy it plus metabones over the zeiss for landscape and architecture.



Apr 08, 2014 at 05:57 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


kolen wrote:
Thanks everyone.
I changed my list according to some information and suggestions (Disadvantage in bracket):
1) Nikon 14-24 (Heavy)
2) Zeiss ZF.2 15/2.8 (Expensive)
3) Canon TS-E 17/4 (Expensive, not as wide, and takes more time to handle, cannot be used on my D800E, not sure yet if the Metabone adapter is necessary which makes the combination more expensive)
4) Samyang 14/2.8 (distortion requires a more time consuming work flow)
I think right now my most important question is, do the Zeiss 15/2.8 has the unique Zeiss 3D look that the other doesn't have? Actually from one of the image I shoot with the Nikon 14-24,
...Show more

See the top post in https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1205456/0?keyword=tofino#11488598


It shows 3 pictures from zeiss 15, 25, and 35. You tell me if they have the zeiss glow.

See the third in post and the reason I bought the zeiss 15 - aurora - https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1251730/0?keyword=x#11919683

Also look for post from Chez in Canon forum - he posted a zeiss post in canon forum that has some samples.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1257307/0?keyword=Zeiss#11968207

I think yes.



Apr 08, 2014 at 06:02 PM
Sneakyracer
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


Here ya go:

http://599productions.blogspot.com/2013/01/14mm-tests-canon-rokinon-zeiss-and-some.html



Apr 08, 2014 at 08:58 PM
kolen
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


I forgot to mention the Sigma 12-24 II. Any good?


Apr 10, 2014 at 07:04 PM
kolen
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


I finally bought a new Nikon 14-24/2.8 again after I sold one recently. After weighting different factors I guess I have to get that back although it is so heavy.
I'm also looking forward to the newly announced Sony Zeiss FE 16-35/4, if it is anything as good as the Nikon I guess I may have to sell it again and bought the Zeiss instead.



May 07, 2014 at 03:01 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


I doubt the new FE will be as good as the Nikon 14-24. Given a price range, I think it starts to come down to physics until there's a large technical jump in glass materials, coating technology, or something radical on the sensor side.


May 07, 2014 at 03:17 PM
kolen
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


That's what I think too. The FE 24-70 I have is proven to be "mediocre", but people points out that it is not worse than the best out there. We just have to accept that it is a zoom, not a prime.

From this how can we extrapolate it to the ultra wide end? "Mediocre", or on par with the best out there?
The magic of Nikon 14-24 is that it is as sharp, or even sharper, than a prime. Would Zeiss do the same?
Well, the Zeiss should have a lower price, lighter weight, slower speed, and not as wide (although not announced in detail yet about the price and weight).
While cheaper and lighter may lower the quality, slower and not as wide make it easier to make.
So I still have hope on it. But before any concrete test I will not wait for months and settle for the Nikon 14-24 again for now.



May 07, 2014 at 03:53 PM
waterden
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


Minolta 17-35/3.5G on LA-EA4.


May 07, 2014 at 05:29 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


Have you considered the Tokina 16-28? Long end gets a little weaker, but the wide end is pretty good distortion, resolution, etc. from what I've seen of test shots, etc. I shoot my Oly 18/3.5 for the wide stuff for its good distortion, the Tokina is on my radar should I decide to go wider. I recall it going head to head with the Nikon and holding its own ... besting @ distortion, from what I saw.

Like the Nikon, it is a chunk of glass, without as chunky a price.



May 07, 2014 at 09:13 PM
millsart
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


Olympus OM's are fantastic wides in very compact sizes and work great on the A7(r) and should work equally well on the D800e

Not 14-24 good, but still pretty darn good overall from my 18/3.5 and 21/3.5 and I much prefer the size/weight. I hardly ever carried my 14-24 just because it took up so much room in the bag.

Same issue with the ZF Zeiss wides, optically great, but just too darn big for a small shoulder bag with my A7r rig

I'm now using the A7 so not quite as demanding of glass, but the OM's I'm really pleased with and the size is just right for mirrorless



May 07, 2014 at 09:52 PM
millsart
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


FlyPenFly wrote:
I doubt the new FE will be as good as the Nikon 14-24. Given a price range, I think it starts to come down to physics until there's a large technical jump in glass materials, coating technology, or something radical on the sensor side.


I think some IQ will be given up to keep the size/weigh reasonable. I recall reading that Sony wants to try to keep the FE's as compact as possible, though they of course can't get around some rules of physics. I think that is why we also won't see much ultra fast glass.

I personally wouldn't buy an UWA FE zoom anywhere close to the size of the 14-24 for my A7, no matter how good, because I'd simply not want to carry it most of the time, so it would be a $1000+ lens left sitting on my desk. Pretty much just what happened with my 14-24 when I had the D800e as well.




May 07, 2014 at 09:56 PM
kolen
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


RustyBug wrote:
Have you considered the Tokina 16-28? Long end gets a little weaker, but the wide end is pretty good distortion, resolution, etc. from what I've seen of test shots, etc. I shoot my Oly 18/3.5 for the wide stuff for its good distortion, the Tokina is on my radar should I decide to go wider. I recall it going head to head with the Nikon and holding its own ... besting @ distortion, from what I saw.

Like the Nikon, it is a chunk of glass, without as chunky a price.

Thanks. I've already bought the Nikon 14-24 yesterday (actually a 2nd purchase on the same lens after I sold it recently). The only reason I sold it before is its weight. Considering the Tokina is practically as heavy, I don't see much reason to get. And after searching for a few reviews online, I found that the Tokina is very weak in the wide end apart from the center, at moderately large aperture, and only get corner to corner sharp at F8.
Thanks for your advise anyway. I was searching for a UWA at about 14mm which is lighter than the Nikon 14-24 but with similar performance. The only other choices I got is the Samyang 14/2.8 which I owned before but sold it because of its distortion, and the Zeiss 15/2.8. I am very close to buy the Zeiss 15/2.8 but just do not have a deal. My target price for the Zeiss 15/2.8 is USD 2200 where the cheapest one is still USD 2400. I decided not to wait a deal anymore and settle with the cheaper Nikon 14/24 again.
My next plan to save weight is to find a good Nikon G to Sony E adapter to use that on my A7R, and that would at least make the whole package on my hand 400g lighter. But another annoying thing about the lens is front heavy, which is not comfortable to my hand. But so far I have to settle for this because there's no other choice. I hope the upcoming Zeiss FE 16-35/4 would be as good as the Nikon at 16mm and I would sacrifice 2mm for super light weight combo.



May 07, 2014 at 09:58 PM
kolen
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


millsart wrote:
Olympus OM's are fantastic wides in very compact sizes and work great on the A7(r) and should work equally well on the D800e

Not 14-24 good, but still pretty darn good overall from my 18/3.5 and 21/3.5 and I much prefer the size/weight. I hardly ever carried my 14-24 just because it took up so much room in the bag.

Same issue with the ZF Zeiss wides, optically great, but just too darn big for a small shoulder bag with my A7r rig

I'm now using the A7 so not quite as demanding of glass, but the OM's I'm really pleased with
...Show more
The only thing I don't like about the Nikon 14-24 is the weight (and possibly also the weight distribution, that is front heavy). And I agree even with the Zeiss 15/2.8 it would be heavy. I would actually be very happy if they have slower prime at about 14mm only that's as good. Voigtlander 12/5.6 and 15/4.5 sounds great on spec and actually do great on film, sadly it isn't on A7(R). And I don't have budget on Leica Ms so I could forget about getting Leica M and 15/4.5 or 12/5.6. If Voigtlander updated their 12/5.6 and/or 15/4.5, optimizing them for digital sensor that would be the one I need.

By the way, theoretically you last statement is not correct. If you reduce the final size from A7 and A7R to the same size, actually A7 is more demanding for the lenses, not A7R. Another way of saying it is that an identical lens would have better performance on a higher density sensor (provided that other things hold constant). This can be explained by the fact that the combined MTF is the product of that of the lens and of the film/sensor. And this is also proven from DxOMark's data (Let say if you compare same lens across 5D III, D600, D800).

But having said that I enjoy using the A7 more than the A7R. The A7 has considerably lesser shutter slap. Using A7R often make me worry about "Shutter blur" and make me chimping a lot.



May 07, 2014 at 10:12 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


kolen wrote:
That's what I think too. The FE 24-70 I have is proven to be "mediocre", but people points out that it is not worse than the best out there. We just have to accept that it is a zoom, not a prime.


I keep hearing this argument everywhere. However, there is one zoom lens that breaks the mold: The Canon 24-70 f/2.8L II.
It's excellent throughout the entire range, coming very close to my TS-E 24mm, TS 35mm and 50mm primes.

Regarding the UWA choice for the A7R, I echo Scott's recommendation. The TS-E 17mm is very versatile for landscape work and if you want wider, all you need to do is stitch 2 or 3 images using shift. You can get 13mm or even 10mm wide! And it's very easy and fast to do in the field.
In that sense, depending on the circumstances, you have a 10mm, 13mm, 17mm and 24mm prime (using the 1.4x extender) in one.

The Samyang 14mm and TS-E 17mm are always in my bag.
Fred



May 07, 2014 at 10:15 PM
kolen
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


millsart wrote:
I think some IQ will be given up to keep the size/weigh reasonable. I recall reading that Sony wants to try to keep the FE's as compact as possible, though they of course can't get around some rules of physics. I think that is why we also won't see much ultra fast glass.

I personally wouldn't buy an UWA FE zoom anywhere close to the size of the 14-24 for my A7, no matter how good, because I'd simply not want to carry it most of the time, so it would be a $1000+ lens left sitting on my desk.
...Show more
From what I've read and recalled, I think they are saying they want to balance between size and IQ, so e.g. we only have 35/2.8, 50/1.8 and 24-70/4. Go any larger in aperture would require them to build a much larger lens. So what I hope is, what they sacrifice is ONLY the aperture, but not IQ.
I hope they would have corner to corner sharp on 16mm end, and it would be fine for me even if it has to stop down to F8. (contrary to the Tokina I just mentioned, it exactly fulfill this requirement BUT has the same weight as the Nikon: at 9xx g). Then I would buy it because of the light weight, and will immediately sell the Nikon 14-24 again.

And I agree with you I often left the Nikon D800E with the 14-24/2.8 at home for normal use. I have missed a lot of chances for UWA moment. I now only from it for "serious stuff" making me having less satisfying experience from the lens.



May 07, 2014 at 10:18 PM
johnctharp
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


So far, the only 'non-mediocre' lens in the FE lineup is the FE55, and the only thing 'non-mediocre' about it is the resolution for a planar normal prime.

I don't hold out much hope for the system, honestly, though it will admittedly continue to be a boon for fogies using old glass .



May 07, 2014 at 10:47 PM
kolen
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


Fred Miranda wrote:
I keep hearing this argument everywhere. However, there is one zoom lens that breaks the mold: The Canon 24-70 f/2.8L II.
It's excellent throughout the entire range, coming very close to my TS-E 24mm, TS 35mm and 50mm primes.
Regarding the UWA choice for the A7R, I echo Scott's recommendation. The TS-E 17mm is very versatile for landscape work and if you want wider, all you need to do is stitch 2 or 3 images using shift. You can get 13mm or even 10mm wide!
In that sense, depending on the circumstances, you have a 10mm, 13mm, 17mm and 24mm prime
...Show more

You're right. I almost forget about that lens. It is legendary, as legendary as the Nikon 14-24/2.8. I sold my Canon before that lens is announced. And one of the main reason for me to jump ship is because of the Nikon 14-24/2.8. I love ultra wide more and that offering is unique. At least the Canon 24-70/2.8 II "can" be replaced by a couple of primes but it's not true for Nikon. (May be actually yes with the Zeiss 15/2.8, and a couple other Zeiss like the 21, but at least having prime in this range is more expensive than having prime in the 24-70 range.)
And even more amazing, the Canon 24-70/2.8 II is I believe lighter than previous generation. Sadly I am not a fan of standard zoom. The only standard zoom I have is for my wife.

TS-E 17mm again. Thanks for reminding me. This lens have been recommended to me a couple of times since a few years ago. But seems like every time I've settle for something else. I initially dismissed it because of the weight, and because I can't use that on my Nikon, and on A7R it requires an electronic adapter. But I think I need to think about it again.



May 07, 2014 at 10:48 PM
kolen
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Choosing an UWA for A7R/D800E


johnctharp wrote:
So far, the only 'non-mediocre' lens in the FE lineup is the FE55, and the only thing 'non-mediocre' about it is the resolution for a planar normal prime.

I don't hold out much hope for the system, honestly, though it will admittedly continue to be a boon for fogies using old glass .

As I have all the FE glass that is released, sadly I can confirm you're right (it certainly depends on what standard one is holding but to a certain standard the statement is true). But let's hope that's not true for the Zeiss UWA. You made me worry...



May 07, 2014 at 10:53 PM
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