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CarlG
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Sw Grand Vista


Mark Metternich wrote:
Sometimes I even like a complete digital art composite (although almost never do them) like this guy:

http://500px.com/Karezoid

which I am sure might make some blow a fuse!


Wow....thanks for including that 500px link!! Like you, a very artistic mind!!



Apr 09, 2014 at 01:44 AM
Peterk78
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Sw Grand Vista


Mark,

Great image, although even as a relatively unsophisticated photographic sw user I could tell right away it wasn't "realistic", even though I have no idea what an orton glow is (maybe I should find out). I doubt many people would think it was a journalistic/realistic rendering. Just a beautiful artistic rendering of an awe inspiring natural scene. Maybe a few people will be more prone to protecting this gorgeous planet after seeing one of your images (or Nigel's).

As many have stated (maybe Dan most articulately), photography is an art, and there is a spectrum of opinions on how to convey one's image of the world to others.

Thanks for sharing you vision. I'll keep an eye out for more (and I'll check out Nigel's also)

Peter



Apr 09, 2014 at 02:22 AM
Thunder1989
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Sw Grand Vista


good timing!


Apr 09, 2014 at 02:26 AM
Mark Metternich
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Sw Grand Vista


Peterk78 wrote:
Mark,

Great image, although even as a relatively unsophisticated photographic sw user I could tell right away it wasn't "realistic", even though I have no idea what an orton glow is (maybe I should find out). I doubt many people would think it was a journalistic/realistic rendering. Just a beautiful artistic rendering of an awe inspiring natural scene. Maybe a few people will be more prone to protecting this gorgeous planet after seeing one of your images (or Nigel's).

As many have stated (maybe Dan most articulately), photography is an art, and there is a spectrum of opinions on how to convey
...Show more

Thanks Peter.

I would say it is mainly realistic with a touch of creativity in the rendering (semantics). And that Nigel does the same thing in some of his photos.



Apr 09, 2014 at 11:35 PM
Mark Metternich
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Sw Grand Vista


I really had to laugh today. A photographer on another forum I belong to commented:

"Unbelievably natural."

I did not laugh because of their comment but all the controversy and how people see things so completely different! Some may be irritated that it is not "natural" and others are happy it is the exact opposite. It would make one insane to try to please everyone.



Apr 11, 2014 at 03:44 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Sw Grand Vista


What forum is that?


Apr 11, 2014 at 04:29 AM
Mark Metternich
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Sw Grand Vista


gdanmitchell wrote:
What forum is that?


Its a closed FB forum. I belong to several of them. I'm not judging my rendition here and certainly not trying to argue its "journalistic realism" (I admittedly and obviously like a touch of dreamy interpretation to some of my work - as I like it in others work). It just made me laugh today because it amazes me how very different some people interpret visual art / photography. I have had a lot of feedback on a lot of other forums on the image and it goes both ways. But taking it all in, if I went back (or go back) to the drawing board I would have backed off the sky color accentuation a bit and lowered the selective highlight glow a tad...



Apr 11, 2014 at 05:24 AM
ckcarr
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Sw Grand Vista


Ian Plant just put something out in his monthly newsletter where he called these type renditions "Dreamscapes." Maybe that's more appropriate?

There's a huge gradient from what Nigel likes, to G. Dan Mitchell's understated yet finely crafted renditions, to the Mark Metternich renditions, Scott Kroekers, Jim Fox's...etc.... Who's to say what's right?

Seems if the digital negative is unaltered, and application is made adjusting color, tone, sharpness, white balance, etc..., and moons or lightning or coyotes weren't pasted in, then it's fine and up to the viewers taste. After all, if no one likes it, then it theoretically should sink right off the bottom of the landscape board and off the page, unless it's "bumped" by the OP constantly (which seems to happen here once in a while).

I think this discussion has been had at least once a year since I joined this forum (By the way, I think on Facebook it's called a "group" as it's a much narrower band of participants).

Edited on Apr 11, 2014 at 03:39 PM · View previous versions



Apr 11, 2014 at 03:11 PM
J Mosher
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Sw Grand Vista


I attended a local Landscape Photography Meetup Group recently and the topic came up on how true or realistic Digital Photography is. A digital sensor captures the light, possibly making in camera adjustments if you shoot in JPEG, through a lens that has unique characteristics. Then the RAW conversion takes place before we actually finish the image to our own liking, in Photoshop or Lightroom. Now the process is muddled even more when printing happens. What ICC profile did you use? Was your monitor calibrated? Was your printer calibrated to your monitor? Which paper did you use? Etc, etc.

This process was very similar back in the film days, the moment you decided which film to buy to capture the scene you were shooting. Was it Velvia or Provia? Kodachrome maybe? Maybe it was Delta 100 or Agfa 100? Your manipulation had already started.

I believe as a photographer you are also an artist. In my opinion, an artist conveys a feeling or renders a scene, they found interesting, to an audience in the way the artist wants to share it.

I am an audience to Mark's images and I enjoy them very much.

Jeremy



Apr 11, 2014 at 03:37 PM
 

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docsmiles17
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Sw Grand Vista


nice composition and capture of lightning. Having never been here, not sure how it looks naturally and your PP appears to be intended to have an HDR effect. If that was your intentions, it looks good on that basis.


Apr 11, 2014 at 04:57 PM
Peterk78
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Sw Grand Vista


Thanks Peter.

I would say it is mainly realistic with a touch of creativity in the rendering (semantics). And that Nigel does the same thing in some of his photos.


Mark, I agree that it's a very realistic image (if not purely so) because many years ago, when I was much younger, and a complete novice to photography, I took a hiking trip up onto one of the plateaus near Zion in the summer. I remember the view from up there looking similar to your image. I don't remember the vista so much as the layered but mostly white sides of the other plateau formations. As a complete novice, i really wasn't able to capture the look and feel on film. I feel you really have, and that's what it's all about.

Thanks for reminding me of that trip!

Peter


Apr 11, 2014 at 05:21 PM
Mark Metternich
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Sw Grand Vista


Thank you very much everyone for the great feedback here! I really appreciate it and have enjoyed all the comments. I will be on the road today through Monday evening on an Oregon Coast workshop and may not be able to respond at all or in full until Tue. Everyone have a great weekend and great light to you.


Apr 11, 2014 at 06:58 PM
Arka
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Sw Grand Vista


Nigel Turner wrote:
At the end of my life.. what would I choose? To be remembered as a good photographer or a 'master' of software?

I personally choose not to manufacture my images, but then again I'm probably in the minority. Each to their own I guess.


And in an earlier post...

For those who want to invent light and composition normally become painters, for those of us who aren't that good become photographers, and those of us that aren't that good at photography use Photoshop.

Nigel, you have a philosophy towards image making. We can all respect that, and your web galleries clearly show that it is working for you.

But the snips I have taken from your postings reflect the deep condescension and lack of knowledge that abounds in the so-called "purist" crowd. You seem to think that using Photoshop to make the perfect image is somehow easier than capturing it. Not so.

It's much harder to "manufacture" a compelling image than to shoot one SOOC. A strong "manufactured" image usually requires more preconception and pre-visualization of the final product.

Moreover, good Photoshop use demands a strong sense of composition, technique, color, value and organization. You have to convincingly manage contrast, establish depth in a 2D medium, and build interesting transitions. There's no "talent" menu in the program, and I've not heard of a third party "persuasiveness" or "amazingness" filter. The problems faced by Photoshop artists are not unlike those faced by painters. Yet, though you concede that it is harder to make a good landscape painting than to photograph one, you seem to believe that becoming a mere "master of software" condemns you to a circle of artistic mediocrity below that of the mere "purist" photographer.

In this, you are wrong. It is harder to successfully "manufacture" an image in Photoshop than to capture it in-camera. That you are happy making images via a SOOC philosophy is terrific. But don't condescend those who take a different path by justifying your choice as you have above. It only shows (whether true or not) that you don't really understand what Photoshop or landscape painting is all about.



Apr 11, 2014 at 11:46 PM
Mark Metternich
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Sw Grand Vista


Arka wrote:
And in an earlier post...

Nigel, you have a philosophy towards image making. We can all respect that, and your web galleries clearly show that it is working for you.

But the snips I have taken from your postings reflect the deep condescension and lack of knowledge that abounds in the so-called "purist" crowd. You seem to think that using Photoshop to make the perfect image is somehow easier than capturing it. Not so.

It's much harder to "manufacture" a compelling image than to shoot one SOOC. A strong "manufactured" image usually requires more preconception and pre-visualization of the final product.
...Show more


Well thought out words!


It's much harder to "manufacture" a compelling image than to shoot one SOOC

That is for sure! That word manufacture IMO is derogatory.

How the process really works is getting incredible moments captured well to begin with. Then carefully developing and fine tuning them. Very few people can actually "manufacture" digital creations (like the 500px link I posted above) and even look remotely good. As an example I teach a full load of students post production via Skype (I'm booked up so don't even ask ) and a couple week ago I had a guy email me, wanting to send me some files, and told me he wanted to highly manipulate them and drop in some skies and such. Maybe people think I do that but he was surprised when I told him point blank "I am not your teacher." I referred him to some other teachers. In a word, what I do is optimize. But the point is, the file needs to be great to begin with and then we draw out a little here and a little there fine tuning the image to bring it to completion. Most of which is simply corrections. Sure there are a few "Icing on the Cake" techniques (my next Video Tutorial coming out ) that are regularly used by a lot of the "best" and if done so with respect and care can give the great image that slight "something" special to be even a little better (subjectively).



Apr 12, 2014 at 12:25 AM
Mark Metternich
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Sw Grand Vista


ckcarr wrote:
Ian Plant just put something out in his monthly newsletter where he called these type renditions "Dreamscapes." Maybe that's more appropriate?


I love that word "dreamscapes". BTW, have people seen that I have teamed up w him and Rossbach... at their E - Store? Those guys are great photographers and fabulous teachers! Some of the best I know of.



Apr 12, 2014 at 12:29 AM
Mark Metternich
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Sw Grand Vista


Since I just finished a private workshop (both shooting and intensive one on one post production training) with a guy who hung out with Ansel Adams and he told me so much about him that most would not even know, I thought this comment might go well here:

"You don't take a photograph, you make it." - Ansel Adams



Apr 16, 2014 at 04:37 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Sw Grand Vista


Mark Metternich wrote:
Since I just finished a private workshop (both shooting and intensive one on one post production training) with a guy who hung out with Ansel Adams and he told me so much about him that most would not even know, I thought this comment might go well here:

"You don't take a photograph, you make it." - Ansel Adams


I know (and shoot with) several photographers who worked with Adams. I wonder if I've run into the person you mention?

(For some interesting reasons, my life forked one way at a time when taking the other fork might have given me an opportunity to be one of those folks. I only "met" Ansel once during his life, and I was too young to understand who and what I was experiencing.)

Dan



Apr 16, 2014 at 06:51 PM
Mark Metternich
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Sw Grand Vista


gdanmitchell wrote:
I know (and shoot with) several photographers who worked with Adams. I wonder if I've run into the person you mention?

(For some interesting reasons, my life forked one way at a time when taking the other fork might have given me an opportunity to be one of those folks. I only "met" Ansel once during his life, and I was too young to understand who and what I was experiencing.)

Dan


He seems like quite a character. A likable guy. Always innovating always pushing forward and even looking to the future.




Apr 17, 2014 at 02:27 AM
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