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Archive 2014 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.

  
 
Natalie H
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Greetings everybody!

I used to be quite a regular lurker here. I was particularly obsessed with the outstanding work of a few of the wedding photogs, and loved reading through the feedback and constructive criticism to build up my own knowledge from the backseat. My husband does a bit of paid photography work, so I've got plenty of nice equipment at my disposal, and have a reasonable grasp of the basics.

Lately I've been thinking more and more about actually giving photography a real go, with the aim of ultimately taking on some paid work myself. I did my first shoot a couple of days ago for free, in exchange for models who were willing to take plenty of direction and wait patiently while I fiddled around and ummed and ahhed a lot. I know this is kind of a no-no (doing free work), but I don't feel like I have enough technical expertise to produce good results on a reliable basis (and in fact, I would prefer to be producing excellent results, not just good ones). I was fairly pleased with what I achieved (which is what has me all excited), but I can already see tonnes of areas I need to improve, and there are no doubt tonnes more areas to improve after that that I'm not even aware of.

I guess I'm hoping for some advice from the pro photogs. I don't need photo critiques, as I think I am self-critiquing fairly well at this stage (though if you're really keen on throwing up a few suggestions, I won't mind). [Edit: Actually, I would love some constructive critique of my editing.] Rather, I'm wondering if the pros could tell me when they started charging, and answer whether they would do anything differently in that respect if they were starting out again.

Looking at other pro websites from my local area, I think my photos compare reasonably well, but then I need to remind myself that I had very willing, cooperative subjects who would happily repose until I got the shot I was after (though in some cases I was too embarrassed to keep going) and excellent conditions. I'm not comfortable yet with Manual mode. I have relied heavily on Aperture Priority until now. I also have no knowledge at all of flash photography.

I'm obviously excited to keep practising, and I don't want to charge anybody for something that's not up to scratch. On the other hand, I've seen people charging for very poor shots, and I could really do with the extra income, so maybe I should just jump in? Then I look at people like Lisa Holloway and think I should really just give up now.

Clearly I'm very torn here. I'd really love some sound, honest advice. Thanks so much.

Oh, and here is the shoot: http://nataliehodgkinphotography.wordpress.com/

Edited: I added one of the photos I really liked to encourage people to click the link.






Edited on Mar 22, 2014 at 06:16 AM · View previous versions



Mar 21, 2014 at 11:52 PM
Jonathan Brady
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


I'm not pro and have no advice to offer but when I read...

Natalie H wrote:
Then I look at people like Lisa Holloway and think I should really just give up now.


I COMPLETELY EMPATHIZE! I know EXACTLY where you're coming from. She's PHENOMENAL and it's incredibly intimidating.

Good luck,
Jonathan



Mar 22, 2014 at 02:51 AM
Natalie H
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Thanks so much for your response, Jonathan. I appreciate you reading through what's probably too much text, and taking the time to empathise!



Mar 22, 2014 at 05:35 AM
dmacmillan
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Natalie H wrote:
Looking at other pro websites from my local area, I think my photos compare reasonably well

What you're viewing could very well be other MWACS that are only three months ahead of you.

Why the need to charge? Why not just enjoy photography for the fun of it?



Mar 22, 2014 at 06:44 AM
Natalie H
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Hi dmacmillan, thanks for responding, and for your honesty.

I have to say, though, that I'm a little perplexed by your question Why the need to charge? Why not just enjoy photography for the fun of it? Couldn't this be asked of anyone in any career? I think I probably didn't explain myself or my intentions clearly enough.

I've been enjoying photography for the fun of it for many years. It's true that the birth of my son has reignited my interest, and I have lately been thinking that I'd like to take my plateaued learning curve and start hiking uphill. I am intending on staging more photo shoots to improve my skills, but this means time away from my family and many hours post processing (obviously something I also need to work on). I don't have the luxury to spend all that time on a hobby without finding a way to generate income too. All photogs started somewhere, and I'd like to become one. So my question is really when do you make the switch from amateur to pro?

I realise that by photog standards I am nowhere near good enough to call myself a pro and will be laughed at by many here. However, given what I know of my local area and the businesses already here, I feel like it may not be such a silly proposition to start a business. Yes, I understand the concept of amateurs undermining the industry, but wouldn't my shooting for nothing be worse than valuing the work, time and intermediate expertise I have by charging for taking photos? I'm honestly not trying to be defensive here, but I am confused by what seems to be a contradiction in what you're recommending. Or have I misunderstood?

One last point (and I hope this doesn't knife my intention to have a genuine discussion); Clearly the term MWACS is meant to be derogatory, and that's fine, but it also comes across to me as rather sexist. I wonder whether others feel the same.



Mar 22, 2014 at 08:10 AM
Steady Hand
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Natalie H wrote:
Hi dmacmillan, thanks for responding, and for your honesty.

I have to say, though, that I'm a little perplexed by your question Couldn't this be asked of anyone in any career? I think I probably didn't explain myself or my intentions clearly enough.

I've been enjoying photography for the fun of it for many years. It's true that the birth of my son has reignited my interest, and I have lately been thinking that I'd like to take my plateaued learning curve and start hiking uphill. I am intending on staging more photo shoots to improve my skills, but
...Show more

Natalie,

I have just come across this topic and read it with interest. I found your introduction (at top) very good for leading the discussion on the topic. Well written and honest.

I also think your response to DMacmillan above is a very nicely worded response too.

And I think MWAC is a sexist term and derogatory too. So I share your feelings on that, and I am a man.

I have an appointment to run to now, but later today I will write you again (in a PM) to respond more to your original topic (at top).
___________________

On the topic: When to Charge?

Briefly put, I think you should be paid when you feel you should be paid.

Just be aware that when you start "charging" for a service you perform, people will look at you and your work differently. And eventually you will probably look at your photography differently too. More on that later.



Mar 22, 2014 at 08:44 AM
bbourizk
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


My experience

For me it was an easy choice as to why I charge for some shoots,
First of Photography is not a living for me, I have a good business that photography wont replace.

I originally started (most people as well I would guess) taking photos of my kids 10 years ago and fell in love with taking portraits. I built up a good body of work (My opinion) of family and friends for a number of years.

The last couple of years people I don't know started asking me to do family portraits etc. after seeing my work on facebook or they visited my site or I was recommended by someone. That's when I started charging. If I'm going to give up my time and time I would spend with my family then I'm going to charge for it. The equipment alone I take on a shoot is in the 10-15K+ mark.


So for me it's pretty easy If I'm shooting for me obviously money is not an issue. If I don't know you and you want me to take some portraits for you then it will cost you a fee.

My advice is get a good body of work behind you, get involved in all the social sites and get people to see your work. If your work is good enough then people will want you to be their photographer.

I enjoyed the little shoot you did, the frame for me was over used but you got some good expressions from them and the shoot looked like fun.

Good luck

Regards
Bud



Mar 22, 2014 at 08:50 AM
Eyeball
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


This thread probably would fit better in the Pro Digital forum.

That said, my observation would be that your comments seem totally focused on your competency with the camera. My belief is that the photography business, like most businesses is about 80% business and 20% "the art" (in this case, photography).

How prepared are you for the business part?
What is your business plan?
What types of photography will you do?
How saturated is your market? Who will be your competition?
How healthy is your social network?
Will family commitments allow you to make business commitments?
Can you invest in back-up equipment (if you haven't already)?
Etc., etc.

In terms of your photography skills, I would say there are many pros who are at your level or below (by the way, my definition of "pro" is someone who gets paid for the work). The only thing that worries me a little bit are your comments about using models and futzing around during the shoot. That makes me question a little if you yet have the calm and assertiveness to maintain the confidence of your clients and efficiently carry out a session. Again though, those aspects are almost more business than photography.

By the way, now that you have opened up like this, don't be surprised if you start getting PMs and emails offering "help" ($$). The hot business these days is selling training, consulting, and tools for photographers. It is today's version of pick and shovel sales for the gold miners.

Good luck. Your challenge will be to have the energy, stamina, and will to break out of the pack.



Mar 22, 2014 at 09:06 AM
Ian Boys
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


I think (with perhaps 1 or 2 exceptions) your photos on your site are perfectly good and yes, you should charge for them. You don't have to charge a lot at the beginning, just start somewhere and keep going.

And doing free shoots for portfolio fodder isn't a no-no. How else would you start?



Mar 22, 2014 at 09:16 AM
Natalie H
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.



Natalie,

I have just come across this topic and read it with interest. I found your introduction (at top) very good for leading the discussion on the topic. Well written and honest.

I also think your response to DMacmillan above is a very nicely worded response too.

And I think MWAC is a sexist term and derogatory too. So I share your feelings on that, and I am a man.

I have an appointment to run to now, but later today I will write you again (in a PM) to respond more to your original topic (at top).
___________________

On the topic:
...Show more

Thank you for your reply, Steady. I appreciate what you've said, and look forward to reading your further advice.



Mar 22, 2014 at 09:27 AM
Natalie H
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


bbourizk wrote:
My experience

For me it was an easy choice as to why I charge for some shoots,
First of Photography is not a living for me, I have a good business that photography wont replace.

I originally started (most people as well I would guess) taking photos of my kids 10 years ago and fell in love with taking portraits. I built up a good body of work (My opinion) of family and friends for a number of years.

The last couple of years people I don't know started asking me to do family portraits etc. after seeing my work on facebook or
...Show more

Thank you so much for taking the time to share your experience, Bud. I really appreciate your advice, which is wonderfully sensible, and yet something I needed to hear.



Mar 22, 2014 at 09:33 AM
Natalie H
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Eyeball wrote:
This thread probably would fit better in the Pro Digital forum.

That said, my observation would be that your comments seem totally focused on your competency with the camera. My belief is that the photography business, like most businesses is about 80% business and 20% "the art" (in this case, photography).

How prepared are you for the business part?
What is your business plan?
What types of photography will you do?
How saturated is your market? Who will be your competition?
How healthy is your social network?
Will family commitments allow you to make business commitments?
Can you invest in back-up equipment (if you haven't already)?
Etc., etc.

In terms
...Show more

You've given me some really excellent food for thought. Big thanks, Eyeball.



Mar 22, 2014 at 09:35 AM
Natalie H
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Ian Boys wrote:
I think (with perhaps 1 or 2 exceptions) your photos on your site are perfectly good and yes, you should charge for them. You don't have to charge a lot at the beginning, just start somewhere and keep going.

And doing free shoots for portfolio fodder isn't a no-no. How else would you start?


Indeed. That may be the point dmacmillan was making earlier too. I possibly misunderstood his sentiments.

Thanks for the encouragement, Ian Boys. Much appreciated.



Mar 22, 2014 at 09:40 AM
friscoron
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Natalie H wrote:
I did my first shoot a couple of days ago for free, in exchange for models who were willing to take plenty of direction and wait patiently while I fiddled around and ummed and ahhed a lot. I know this is kind of a no-no (doing free work), but I don't feel like I have enough technical expertise to produce good results on a reliable basis (and in fact, I would prefer to be producing excellent results, not just good ones).


When you said, "I know this is kind of a no-no...", I thought you would be referring to your "fiddled around and ummed and ahhed a lot" comment. If someone is paying you and you're fiddling around and umming and ahhing a lot, they may lose confidence in you. So you may want to consider that as you begin taking on paid assignments.

As for doing free work, that's exactly how you develop your technical skills and your posing skills. And even after you have developed those, almost every pro continues to do personal work for free just for their own artistic expressions, or to do things that they want to do as opposed to doing what they're paid to do.

You have some nice work on your site.

Ron



Mar 22, 2014 at 10:03 AM
Natalie H
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Cheers, Ron. Thanks for the feedback!


Mar 22, 2014 at 10:12 AM
Lisa_Holloway
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Hi Natalie,

I understand completely where you are coming from! This was me also at one point some years back. I've always been an artistic, creative person, and photography is how this has manifested itself in my adult life. Also, like you, my children reignited my interest in photography.

When I was pregnant with my 5th little one, I was part of an online mother's group. A little photography group branched off of this group and people that were interested in learning more about photography joined up. I remember looking at the work of a pro child photographer in this group and just *wishing* I could do that.

I am incredibly stubborn once I set my mind on something and I set my mind on getting good at photography. That was the turning point for me. I taught myself how to shoot in manual mode on a little old 4 megapixel Olympus point and shoot. I went through every stage a new photographer could possibly go through - OOF pics, selective coloring, alien eyes, nuclear colors, you name it - I was there. lol When I finally felt like I had a handle on shooting in manual mode, we scraped up the money to buy me a Canon 40D and kit lens. I was in LOVE. I also quickly realized that that kit lens was limiting me, and thus, my 'wish list' started to grow.

By this point, I was expecting our 7th child and was a stay at home mom. We had enough money to pay the bills but certainly not enough for me to be blowing thousands on the expensive glass that forever lived on this 'photography wish list.' My husband finally told me that if I wanted more than the equipment I was currently working with, I'd really need to start making some money taking pictures. It was at this point that I made the (rather spontaneous) decision to move from hobbyist to business woman.

I had no clue what I was doing business wise. I was cheap. I had a $50 session fee and my disc of edited images was $75 (I now charge a $300 session fee and the disc is $2750). I knew nothing about taxes, turning a profit, etc. It was definitely a learn as you go thing for me. Most people starting out like I did (without a clue) burn out quickly. This is where I think my stubbornness comes into play. I have tinkered around with my pricing over the years more times than I care to admit. I've made dozens upon dozens of mistakes (we won't go into that here). I have also found that I enjoy taking pretty pictures MUCH more than I enjoy running a business. I do not like bookkeeping, taxes, dealing with mountains of emails, rigid scheduling, etc. But gosh darn it - I was pretty proud of myself when I saved the money to purchase my very first upgrade (the 5D Mark II and the 85mm 1.2L).

I've been plugging away since 2008. I raised my prices pretty significantly this year because honestly, I'd rather shoot 10 clients for $25,000 than 100 clients for the same amount. I now have 10 children and homeschool some of them, with more to be added to the homeschool group soon. I still hate dealing with business stuff and still much more enjoy taking/making pretty photography.

I guess the few points I would like to get across in my long ramble is that taking that step from liking photography to owning a photography business is a HUGE one. Do I regret it? Not really. While I don't love the business aspect, it has given our family a lot that we could not have afforded before, and I've been blessed enough to be able to earn every last piece of equipment that was on that wishlist, and then some. We could survive without my photography income, but we would be on a very tight budget. No more organic everything, no more eating out, no more road trips, no more new purse just because I like it, etc etc. But we could survive.

I've had my days where I was over it and ready to throw in the towel, but I haven't. Also, as Steady mentioned - people will look at you and your work differently when you are in business. There will be new expectations you will have to meet. No more going out and just shooting what you want, editing a few images that you like, and being done. You will deal with PITA clients (most are nice - but the ones who are awful will definitely stick in your head). I've had my share of both.

Think about it long and hard. Do you want to own a business? I would probably cringe if I knew how many hours of my life I'd dedicated to this over the years. The to do list never ends. If I'm not taking photos, I'm editing them, if I'm not editing, I'm answering emails, if I'm not answering emails, I'm promoting my work, etc etc. I'm a one woman show so I do it ALL (with the support of my very helpful and patient husband and children). I've sacrificed a LOT to do what I do. There are days where it hardly feels worth it.

To answer your original question though, you should begin charging when you are sure that you want to run a photography business. As a matter of personal opinion, I also think that you should charge when you are able to regularly and without fail turn out a professional looking set of photos to a client. What that means is up for interpretation.

Do you feel that your work is up to professional standards? Do you WANT to own a business? How much is your time and talent worth to you? Think about these questions, and then proceed carefully. Just so it doesn't sound all doom and gloom (I swear, it isn't), it is pretty awesome to be able to bring in an income doing something that you love. I mean - despite my less than warm and fuzzy feelings about owning a business, I'd much rather be doing this than sitting behind a desk in a cubicle somewhere. Best of luck to you.



Mar 22, 2014 at 10:19 AM
jefferies1
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


I would not charge until you are 100% sure of what you can do with a camera and post processing. A lot of what you see on this site is not amazing photography but good setup and amazing processing giving an end result people will love. You need the experience to see the end result before setting up the photo.

When doing free or trade shoots people seldom expect very much. The second you charge money things change. A less than happy client may want you to pay them back for $400.00 in hair and makeup she paid for herself and the 2 teens just for the photo shoot.

You don't have to master all kinds of photography. Perfect one niche and stick with it as you slowly expand. You can charge for that specific area and avoid what you are not as good at. Just know your limitations.

I make 100% of my income from photography but I will never take a job shooting professional sports. I don't have the knowledge or equipment to do the job. Of course people usually hire you based on the style image shown in your portfolio so repeat business in one area of photography is normal.

If you want to focus on natural light family shots them don't be afraid to limit your bookings to that niche. If clients want to move indoors to shoot in the new house don't take the job until you master flash photography.

Get insurance coverage, errors and omissions to protect yourself. In fact I would not even do free shoots without it but it is a must have for paid work.



Mar 22, 2014 at 01:59 PM
Steady Hand
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Hi Natalie,

I just read the responses from Lisa and Jefferies1. Both made many good points (very good advice) in answer to your topic.

In fact, if this forum had 'stickies' I would suggest this topic become "stuck."




Mar 22, 2014 at 02:09 PM
Natalie H
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Lisa, I am blown away by your generosity in writing back to me so thoroughly. I was thrilled to see you'd replied, and was even more glad that you summarised the hard work it took you to get you where you are today. I am actually very encouraged by your story. I guess I knew you must have started somewhere, but it was hard to imagine, given the talent you now possess.

I really appreciate the questions you've posed, and your honesty about the more mundane, frustrating and time-consuming aspects of the job do have me thinking. Thank you very much for your honesty. As well as helping me, I'm sure there are many other aspiring photogs now considering their options more deeply because you took the time to reply in so much detail.



Mar 23, 2014 at 05:28 AM
Natalie H
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · When to start charging? Starting from the middle.


Thank you so much for your insights and advice, jefferies1. You made some really great points, and I'm very grateful that you took the time to reply so carefully.


Mar 23, 2014 at 05:34 AM
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