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Archive 2014 · New to Printing

  
 
hugowolf
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · New to Printing


JimKied wrote:
OK - I'm just sticking with Canon papers right now and the two images look pretty different to me. But then maybe not unusually different to you pros. So it may just be me. But to be sure, is there a (erroneous) color management setting that would make them be off (not match close enough)? If not, I guess my next step is to figure a way to change the profile to get a better match?


Looking at your previously posted settings, I couldn't see anything wrong with them. But your problems do seem to be more likely casued by something in your workflow than anything else.

You can't really mess with profiles, you could have custom profiles made, you could (with a spectrophotometer and software) create your own, but you can't modify the ones you have. You could try downloading new ones in case the others have somehow been corrupted - at this stage I don't see what you have to lose by doing that.

With Canon paper on a Canon printer, you should be able to just let the printer manage color.

Brian A



Mar 24, 2014 at 07:48 PM
Shutterbug2006
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · New to Printing


JimKied wrote:
I continue to improve my skills in photography, and I have started to develop my workflow for printing. To that end, I recently got the Canon Pixma Pro-100. And I've come to realize that printing is going to be another learning experience for me.

I use CS6 and my Dell 2410 is color managed using an I1 display pro. Since the printer is wide gamut, I have been using the aRGB color space. Adobe manages the colors.

Prints do not match the image on screen. Strong color cast - can't even begin to tell you which way - think it
...Show more

The only idea I can come up with is you need to learn about color management. You can review some of the articles and posts on this site, you can also learn a great deal by watching a series of videos "Camera to Print and Screen" produced by Michael Reichmann and Jeff Schewe . You can find most of them on YouTube.

Link : http://bit.ly/1dtKab8



Mar 25, 2014 at 06:13 PM
JimKied
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · New to Printing


I went back and reset all my settings to default. And then changed them to adobe manages color, turned off printer color management settings, did my soft proof and adjusted to what I thought was best and the went to the adobe print screen. The color of the image was still off in the print screen area, but I went ahead and printed anyway. This time the prints were incredibly close to my soft proofed images. I still am not sure what setting was out, or if the return to default "corrected" a conflict, but I am now confident that I will get prints like what I see on screen (but not as seen on the print settings screen).

Still don't know why the print settings screen looks so different, but, hey, I'm getting prints like I expect, so I'm happy. I'll just use the print settings screen to orient the image on the paper and whatnot.

Thanks to all of you that offered suggestions. Just the back and forth helped me gain confidence that I had made my settings correctly. And thanks Brian A for sticking with me throughout the process. I'm sure that noobs can be pretty difficult to explain things to. I just feel fortunate to have resources on FM to help explain things. Being hearing impaired, resources like YouTube are pretty useless to me since I cannot hear the voice behind the explanations on the videos.



Mar 26, 2014 at 09:15 PM
John Wheeler
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · New to Printing


Hi Jim
Glad to hear your matches are much better.
I toss in a few more ideas for you to consider in getting a better match from monitor to print. With the image in Adobe RGB there is a translation going to the printer through the ICC profile and all other printer settings including rendering intent, Black point compensation etc. A lot of good posts on that topic. What is missing is that when viewing on the monitor you have the same types of translations that must occur going from Adobe RGB to the monitors ICC profile (from you calibration). So the mismatch from monitor to printer is comparing the translation from Adobe RGB to your monitor compared to a different translation from Adobe RGB to your print. I will add a few comments on the settings for the printer and then focus on the settings for your monitor
- For printing you have chosen perceptual rendering intent. This intent does the best at having photographic colors look good relative to each other when the image has a fair amount of out of gamut colors it will shift "all" the colors a bit to have them fit in the printer color space. And that is the rub, all of the colors are being shifted. Relative colorimetric rendering intent will take the out of gamut colors and shift them closer to the edge of the printer gamut edge and not shift all the in gamut colors. So a slightly different look with fewer colors shifted.
- For your monitor. This should not be ignored. Your 2410 is a nice monitor yet keep in mind it is wide gamut yet does not totally cover the Adobe RGB color space. Here are some suggestions
a) I would recalibrate your monitor (are you using Xrite or Datacolor solution?) after double check all of your OSD settings. Are you using custom settings or just using a "Mode" setting such as Adobe RGB or custom setting. Do not assume that setting to Adobe RGB is accurate especially as your monitor will shift with time and I bet this monitor is getting older as it is not being sold anymore.
b) Do you have all the auto settings and automatic/dynamic adjustments turned off? There are some modes in the OSD of your monitor such as dynamic contrast that can through things off
c) After calibration, did you lock down all the settings (an option in your OSD) or did you make "any" changes to the settings after calibration (which of course would negate the calibration)
d) What rendering intent is being used with your monitor (this is an OS setting). If you have a different rendering intent than being used with the print settings then this is not necessarily bad yet will make the mismatch potentially larger
e) Soft proofing is often done by setting the ICC profile to the printer ICC profile. It is not a bad idea to do the same using the monitor ICC profile. That way you can see if the Adobe RGB image is also out of gamut relative to your monitor. A quick check is not just to look for color shifts yet also use the gamut warning feature under the PS view menu. That will at least flag you to the areas where the image is not being properly displayed on your monitor.
f) There is another area of possible mismatch with the monitor and will mention for completeness yet do not think this is your issue. It is possible that with you Adobe RGB image that the printer colors are not a subset of the colors your monitor can display (most cases the monitor is a superset of colors of the printer). This could be checked by converting you image in PS to the ICC profile of the printer and then doing a out of gamut warning against your monitor profile. Some better inkjet printers can cover the deep blues and deep magentas better than monitors. I don't see those colors those colors in your image though.
---------------------
If you have out of gamut colors on your monitor then and/or your rendering intent is set differently then you have a situation where the match from monitor to print could be larger.
I would not be surprised that this could be part of the issue and I suggest it is worth investigating. Just my opinion of course.



Mar 27, 2014 at 08:25 AM
voltaire
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · New to Printing


I'm a noob in printing and just getting into it. I just wanted to acknowledge all the contributors to this Post Processing and Printing forum. Your input is much appreciated.

Thanks, again.

Voltaire




Mar 27, 2014 at 02:09 PM
JimKied
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · New to Printing


Gee, John Wheeler! Just when I think I am getting somewhere, you come along and bring a lot of other stuff to the table!! One step forward, two steps back...... I'm just poking fun, not upset at all. It's just amazing to me that a simple act like printing has to be so darn complicated....

I do hope you understand that I am now getting very close to what I see in soft proof mode in the print. I think the disconnect to me was the fact that when I went to the print settings display and saw the image in the print settings display that particular image was really off. And I think I might know why - but I would need you guys to verify/confirm. I'm using pro photo as my color space and printing to a wide gamut printer. I suspect that some of the displays, including the one in the print settings, are only capable of a standard sRGB rendition. The color shift is then because the software trying to display my pro photo image in a SRGB space. Does that sound like a plausible explanation?

As to your other Qs, I use teh i1 display pro for monitor calibration. It also has printer calibration capabilities, but I haven't tried them yet. And I have it set to remind me to recalibrate one time a month. And I have also turned off auto ambient light adjustment because it was causing my screen to flicker.

The part that threw me when I first read your suggestions was the part about the monitor itself. But partly after I started checking, I realized that I had been down this path before when I first got the monitor - just had forgotten. Back then, I had first selected the aRGB mode, but it didn't seem like the calibration was "taking." After playing with all the modes, I finally settled on the standard mode. It seemed to be the best mode for using calibration software and pucks. I kinda confirmed this by googling around the internet. Your statement about locking down the settings is throwing me. I haven't specifically done anything of that nature that I know of, and looking around on the OCD menu, I don't seem to see or I don't know what to look for to see if it is locked down. Still researching there.

As for rendering intent, I make sure that I am using the same intent throughout the process. I know I can change it in the print settings menu, but I make sure it is the same intent I used when soft-proofing. That was interesting what you said about the differences between perceptual and relative. I have simply been toggling between the two and trying to see which one gives the best look. Most of the time the differences are very subtle, but every now and then there can be some larger differences. Based on what you said, it seems I should use relative colorimetric. Is that a fair observation?

Soft-proofing/ICC profiles. This is more of a question - since I am using pro photo and not converting to aRGB or sRGB and I am printing to a wide gamut monitor, does it matter? At this point I select the paper ICC profile in soft-proof and then when I set up the printer I select the same paper ICC profile there also. So I should be good to go, right?

I have been checking for out-of-gamut and I have not been getting any warnings, so I haven't really thought of that. But to be honest, I really gotten into color space theory that much and I'm not sure I totally understand. But the gist of what I do understand is that both the software gamut (pro photo) and the printer gamut can produce colors that I can't see. But the colors that each of these things can produce may not be the same, this may cause some color shifts that I will be able to see once printed. And I may either like or dislike the results. Is that a reasonable understanding of the issue? And if it is, I'm not really sure what I would do to correct it, other than going back and changing the intents or maybe converting to sRGB so that I can get the space within the capabilities of what I can see and then modifying to taste. Would that be a reasonable approach?

Inquiring minds want to know.....

Edited on Mar 28, 2014 at 07:47 AM · View previous versions



Mar 27, 2014 at 07:37 PM
hugowolf
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · New to Printing




No, the dispaly profile should take care of that, at least to more than extent that you are viewing problems.

Auto ambient light adjustment is rarely a good idea. But the i1Display is not capable of producing printer/paper profiles.


When testing, when comparing, yes, relative colorimetric is the way to go. There are too many variables involved in using a percetual intent. The creation of the two perceptual tables, for the profile, are very much a black art.



Soft-proofing/ICC profiles. This is more of a question - since I am using pro photo and not converting to aRGB or sRGB and I am printing to a wide gamut monitor, does it matter? At this point I select the paper ICC profile in soft-proof and then when I set up the printer I select the same paper ICC profile there also. So I should be good to go, right?


Not sure what you are asking there.


I have been checking for out-of-gamut and I have not been getting any warnings, so I haven't really thought of that. But to be honest, I really gotten into color space theory that much and I'm not sure I totally understand. But the gist of what I do understand is that both the software gamut (pro photo) and the printer gamut can produce colors that I can't see. But the colors that each of these things can produce may not be the same, this may cause some color shifts that I will be able to see once printed. And I may
...Show more

The printer cannot produce colors you cannot see. Its gamut is totally vissible.

There are colors that are in both the printer's gamut and the ProPhotoRGB gamut, there are color in the ProPhotoRGB space that the printer cannot reproduce. There are 'colors' in the the ProPhotRGB space that nothing can reproduce. There are no colors that the printer can reproduce that aren't in the ProPhotoRGB space.

Brian A




Mar 27, 2014 at 10:29 PM
John Wheeler
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · New to Printing


Hi Jim
I do know that you are getting a pretty good match which is great. I was just putting out there other avenues where mismatches can come in to play. It is difficult to get a perfect match from monitor to screen. Soft proofing gets you close yet not exact and I think it is great the you just try the different rendering modes and pick the one that looks best. The standard mode is great for for you monitor as you calibrated that mode and it is very close to Adobe RGB. Here is a link that goes over the different modes for that monitor (only suggestion is make sure the brightness is not too high): http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2410.htm
As far as the other OSD settings that might be a moot point as you chose standard mode. Here is a link to the user manual where it outlines all the different mode options and settings: ftp://ftp.dell.com/Manuals/all-products/esuprt_electronics/esuprt_Display/dell-u2410_Setup%20Guide_en-us.pdf
So I would not sweat it as it looks like it is good to go.
I will share some background and links to images to review. In this first link I compare a 2D chart of the color gamut of ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB and the ICC profile for Pixma Pro 100 paper SG 3. Gamut Comparison
They are plotted in Lab space which pretty much encompasses all the eye can see.
ProPhoto RGB is humongous in gamut. The printer profile even though a wide gamut printer is the smallest. Adobe RGB (very close to what your monitor displays) is for the most part in between yet the printer gamut goes outside Adobe RGB in some places.
If your image is in ProPhoto RGB and either contains or is edited with a good amount of extra saturation then it will have colors that are outside both the printer and monitor gamuts. When viewing on the monitor the colors are mapped to your monitor's ICC profile (which is about the Adobe RGB gamut). This means you cannot see the colors contained in your image on your monitor. The images out of gamut colors will be mapped closer to the Adobe RGB edge. When you soft proof, the ProPhoto higher saturated colors of the image gets mapped to the edges of the Printer ICC profile (gamut) which in most cases (not all) is smaller than you monitor. To be able to predict what the printer will produce you do soft proofing where the ProPhoto image is converted to the Printer Profile and the viewed on the monitor (which BTW is a second conversion - more on that later so hang on and hope I have not lost you). What you see with soft proofing is much closer to what you will see in print yet not always. More details on one of the reasons follow.
This second link is a 3D gamut map of just Adobe RGB (~your monitor) and the Pixma Pro 100 SG 3 profile. 3D gamut plot Adobe RGB vs Pixma Pro 100 SG 3
The wireframe is Adobe RGB and the solid colors is the printer profile/gamut. In many cases Adobe RGB is larger. yet there are a few areas where the printer gamut is larger than Adobe RGB. This includes some close to cyan colors in the mid range luminosity. So when you go to print some cyan colors that were out of gamut, they will map to the edges of the cyan bump of the printer profile. When you soft proof, those same colors get mapped to even less saturation to the edge of the Adobe RGB profile. The print cold end up with more cyan saturation then what you see on the monitor.
So you don't get perfection with Color Management and soft proofing yet you get pretty close. Bottom line is do you get a print you like, not do you have an exact match.
Is this your problem. Though it is possible I am skeptical. It is more likely that the monitor ICC profile is slightly off or that the printer profile is slightly off (the actually ICC profile will vary from printer to printer from manufacturing variations and you might get closer with a custom printer profile.
Is there an easier way not to have this ProPhoto RGB mapping issue. To a great degree, yes. If you don't want to mess with color gamuts that you cannot see in your monitor, then for your wide gamut monitor convert the image to Adobe RGB instead of ProPhoto RGB to eliminate that as a source of the issue. The downside of that approach is for the few areas where the printer gamut is larger than Adobe RGB, then those printer colors are not longer accessible once you have somewhat truncated the colors into Adobe RGB (e.g. slightly less saturated cyans).

So no, I would not covert to a smaller gamut such as sRGB as you would lose the ability to access the wider gamut colors of your printer.

I hope this helps instead of just adding more confusion.





Mar 28, 2014 at 02:17 PM
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