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Archive 2014 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)

  
 
Bsmooth
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


I'm pondering a major choice; the 1DMKII seems to do an OK job at BIF, still get almost shots, and thats an issue I want to improve. I only shoot handheld, and that could be a large part.
Longest lens I'll probably ever use is a 400(maybe a Tammy 150-600).
My current choices that I would see as best choices are the 1DMKIV,5DIII,6D, and maybe the 70D, although for image quality I think the first 3 would be the best choice.
Strictly for keepers, If I didn't want to miss that once in a lifetime shot, which would be my best choice?



Mar 12, 2014 at 08:55 AM
Kathy White
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


Either the 1DIV or 5DIII, and if you are looking at the Tamron 150 600 it does not work properly in AI Servo with 1DIV at this time.


Mar 12, 2014 at 09:02 AM
mitesh
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


I would say that much of your decision depends upon why you are unsatisfied with the results you are getting now. If you can post some SOOC images along with final crops that show your typical results and how you want to improve upon them, then perhaps you'll get some good advice directly from people who use the cameras you show an interest in.

As an example, if your images are OOF, then you might benefit from a newer body that has a more robust AF system, or a body that offers AFMA. On the other hand, if you are focal length limited and find yourself cropping extensively, then a body with a higher MP count or, dare I say, a crop factor for "reach", might offer some benefit.

Without more specifics and some examples, you'll likely get a lot of generalizations and opinions based on guesses.



Mar 12, 2014 at 09:13 AM
Roy Morales
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


1st , get a monopod - at least as tall as you are . Buy a book or 2 on BIF [ used at amazon . ]
Camera wise , I would consider either the 70 D or just wait for a new release . I would also wait
on the 150-600 for a fix [ I have a 7D , but seldom use AI servo and I am on waiting list for lens ]



Mar 12, 2014 at 01:10 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


I'd start with Mitesh's recommendations. You really do not know why your gear does not perform to your expectations (at least based on your post), so upgrading your camera may not be the ticket. Maybe you need a camera that has better tracking and ISO performance. Maybe you need a better lens. Maybe you need a good tripod and gimbal head, or a monopod as suggested. Some can shoot very well hand held with BIF, maybe others not as well. I have not used the new Tammy, but from what I read, sounds like this is on hold as far as BIF with multiple canon cameras.


Mar 12, 2014 at 01:19 PM
Bsmooth
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


I've got some great shots of BIF, including barn swallows(not with any great consistancy), so its not like I have done them before.But any suggestions on a good book on the subject would be quite welcome. I'd just like a better keeper rate.
Sounds like I need the 400 5.6, as its slightly better at BIF than my 1DMKII and 100-400, especially since I walk around with it locked at 400 anyways.
As far as Birds coming directly at me or going away, not very consistant at all.
What is a good keeper rate 20 out of a 100 ? I'd like to get that up to 50 out of a 100 at least, and I think thats quite attainable, even hand held.



Mar 12, 2014 at 01:53 PM
Liquidstone
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


Bsmooth wrote:
What is a good keeper rate 20 out of a 100 ? I'd like to get that up to 50 out of a 100 at least, and I think thats quite attainable, even hand held.


Good luck with your target keeper rate of 50%. I'd be very happy to get one keeper for every 100 BIF shots, and would gladly shoot thousands of frames all day to get one frameable BIF capture.



Mar 12, 2014 at 02:00 PM
Bsmooth
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


Maybe I should say 50 out of a 100 in focus. If I had half a wing in focus I could live with that, as I would know I'd just plain missed it. But If I have a bird centered in the viewfinder, and its out of focus, then I wonder what went wrong, especially panning side to side.
Birds coming or going away is harder for the camera to keep up, then again I've done airshows and the camera does fine there as well, bigger target but mostly keepers, much faster moving "birds" too !



Mar 12, 2014 at 02:14 PM
jasonpatrick
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


Liquidstone wrote:
Good luck with your target keeper rate of 50%. I'd be very happy to get one keeper for every 100 BIF shots, and would gladly shoot thousands of frames all day to get one frameable BIF capture.


+1. I couldn't agree more with this.

the 1dII is a fantastic camera for BIF - not just OK. It's older, bigger, and not as sexy - but there aren't many cameras better at making sure the thing you're pointing the camera/lens at is going to be in focus. The 100-400 is no slouch either. I would rather the 400 f/5.6 for BIF, but the 100-400 with limiter on and a 1D body is going to be a pretty great combo.

Better gears are more fun to buy and use - but the gears you have are more than capable of making fantastic BIF shots.




Mar 12, 2014 at 02:19 PM
diverhank
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


If you consider a picture that's not OOF a keeper then yes, you can attain 75% keeper rate with a 1DX and 5D3 (which I use). For real, frameable keeper, I'd be happy to get a 4% rate (1 in 25).

By the way, the 70D is way preferable for BIF than the 6D (better focus, 1.6 times closer). It's even better than the 7D when comparing ISO performance.



Mar 12, 2014 at 02:35 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


Bsmooth wrote:
What is a good keeper rate 20 out of a 100 ? I'd like to get that up to 50 out of a 100 at least, and I think thats quite attainable, even hand held.

Liquidstone wrote:
Good luck with your target keeper rate of 50%. I'd be very happy to get one keeper for every 100 BIF shots, and would gladly shoot thousands of frames all day to get one frameable BIF capture.


I agree with Romy and Jason.

Last year, I shot a total of about 2000 images of eagles in flight, over two days. I culled them down to about 80 images that looked pretty good (that's 4 in 100). I sold six images and picked another six or so that are my "keepers", many of which I've posted in threads here. So that's 2000 images and 10 to 20 keepers.

BTW, I used 1DX, 1DIV, 300/2.8 L IS, and 500/4L IS for most of those photos. I'm satisfied with my keeper rate.

P.S. my "cull" from 2000 to about 80 'acceptable' photos matches Hank's 1 in 25, exactly
(I didn't see his post until after posting the first part of this reply, above).



Mar 12, 2014 at 02:57 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


400mm and 8MP for bif is really stretching it in general. You have little crop freedom and often find you only have 1-3MP left. 1D IV will give you a lot more flexibility with a 400mm as it's giving you the same reach as the 1D II + 1.4x TC.

I would say using cameras like the 1 series my BIF keeper rate (as in looks good at 100%) would easily be 25-50% except for swallows, where it's probably more like 1%. Hard enough to get them in the VF, let alone track them and also hard enough not to end up with about 500kp after cropping. For surfing my 1 series keeper rates are around 90% in terms of good focus. Not saying I keep 90% of them as they fail for other reasons or I've got 10 shots nearly all the same, so I only keep the one with best composition etc.



Mar 12, 2014 at 05:31 PM
Tim Kuhn
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


I shoot a LOT of bif's and I'm fussier than most on what I would call a keeper. An in focus shot is just scratching the surface of what a keeper is. The point I'm getting at is fps is very important to maximize the opportunity to get just the right wing position, shadow effects, head turns and such. My vote would be for the 1d mk4 for the frame rate and AF speed out of the bodies you are asking about. I like mine so much that I kept it after getting the 1DX and it's on the second shutter after the first went well beyond 500k clicks.

Tim



Mar 12, 2014 at 06:20 PM
Bsmooth
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


I'd like to show you some OOf shots, but the very first thing I do is cull through all mine and get rid of any OOF images.
As far as settings go I shoot at 1/1600 to 1/2000(when possible) and use mode 2 for IS and usually have the further setting on my AF .
Just for info what incamera settings should I have for best results?
Your right on the money as far as crops. If I don't fill the frame, the results aren't the best.
The 1DII is very good, but there are better now.Even the 1DMKIII is better from what I heard, That was going to be my next choice.
As far as burst rate I've found, If you get one in focus there all pretty much in focus, but it has the other side, which I've seen way more often, and thats a whole string of OOF shots, so I only usually shoot 3 or 4 shots. I only ever shoot center point focus, and that has its good and bad points as well.
But since I've only ever shot a 20D and a well used 1DMKII, I don't have anything to compare it too.
I'm not knocking the MKII, its a great camera and has gotten me a lot of shots I would have ever gotten, but at the same time its at least 9 years old now, and thats a long time as far as technology goes.



Mar 12, 2014 at 07:35 PM
mark fadely
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


The autofocus is not much better on the new cameras. It's really the cropping advantage where you'll realize some big gains. Get the MKIV if you can.


Mar 12, 2014 at 07:58 PM
Bsmooth
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


Mark your WWW page has my other favorite bird to capture(Barn Swallow), and it sure is a challenge !


Mar 12, 2014 at 09:13 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


Bsmooth wrote:
I'd like to show you some OOf shots, but the very first thing I do is cull through all mine and get rid of any OOF images.
As far as settings go I shoot at 1/1600 to 1/2000(when possible) and use mode 2 for IS and usually have the further setting on my AF .
Just for info what incamera settings should I have for best results?
Your right on the money as far as crops. If I don't fill the frame, the results aren't the best.
The 1DII is very good, but there are better now.Even the 1DMKIII is better
...Show more

Indeed, 1D II still does well for 9 yo tech and IQ is good up to ISO 800, but there are better choices and indeed 1D III is a better all round camera in nearly every area I can think of. I found a much smaller step from 1D III to IV than 1D II to III. If 1D III had of had high res LCD and even say 12MP I might have skipped 1D IV altogether, and certainly would have if I knew 5D III was coming with 1DX AF.



Mar 12, 2014 at 09:18 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


Unless you have proved it is the camera and not your technique, you could be under the misconception that a different body will increase your percentage of keepers.


Mar 12, 2014 at 10:35 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


All you need is a 40D and a 400 f5.6, especially for pijuns.







Mar 12, 2014 at 11:12 PM
mark fadely
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · BIF and camera choices (Canon)


Bsmooth wrote:
Mark your WWW page has my other favorite bird to capture(Barn Swallow), and it sure is a challenge !



Thanks Bruce, I love shooting swallows even though the frustration level is high. There is something surreal about catching one of those little birds in-flight. In fact, it was the 1D MKII that finally made it possible to hone your skills without wasting film and allowing more cropping room than the original 1D. I got a 1D MKIIn in 2005 along with a 400 5.6 and started practicing. By summer 2006 I was able to catch a few good frames of the speedy little Barn Swallows. The MKII or MKIIn with a 400 5.6L is still about as good as anything on the market for small bird BIF shooting. And to think that you can pick up the combo for $1,500 on the used market makes it a sweet bargain for people wanting to really work on small bird flight shots.

I think your in-focus BIF shooting would improve substantially with a 400 5.6L. I used the 100-400 like you do and it never performed on the level of the 400 5.6. So many more shots are sharp with the 400 5.6. There are people here on FM that will argue that point but it has been my experience that the 400 5.6 prime is miles ahead of the 100 - 400 zoom when it comes to fast, small bird flight shooting, especially when shooting wide-open at f5.6.

One of my favorite swallow shots dates back to the summer of 2006 and was shot with the 1D MKIIn and 400 5.6L.

http://markfadely.smugmug.com/Nature/Birds/i-McK7Wrd/0/XL/225705471_706z102l%20-%20Copy%20%282%29And2more_tonemapped-l-f-2-XL.jpg

ISO 500
Focal Length 400mm (520mm in 35mm)
Aperture f/5.6
Exposure Time 0.0008s (1/1250)
Date Taken 2006-07-28 02:23:06
Model Canon EOS-1D Mark II N



Mar 13, 2014 at 07:11 AM
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