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Archive 2014 · Money equals talent ?

  
 
15Bit
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Money equals talent ?


We are mostly focusing on the outlier cases here - the rich and talentless and the poor and gifted. Convenient straw-men.

Reality is not so clear-cut: Talent and opportunity feed on each other, so having better equipment and access to better subjects/locations will not only allow you to realise the talent you have, it will help you grow it. So yes, having money is important to improve and extend your abilities, but of course you need to be willing to put in the time and use the money to achieve said growth. And of course everyone has a limited potential, and that should be borne in mind when assessing the value of more and better equipment.

Speaking personally, moving from nothing to a P&S (obviously) made me a much better photographer. Moving from a P&S to a crop DSLR improved my imaging a lot too. Buying a 70-200mm lens similarly had a big impact on the quality and range of my images. Moving up to FF improved things a little too, but now i am in "diminishing returns" country, and for sure moving up from my 5D to a 5D3 isn't going to make me much better than i am now.



Mar 09, 2014 at 02:57 AM
Joe Garner
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Money equals talent ?


Better gear certainly allows me to take better pictures, but I am not feeling particularly ashamed of it. Two reason for it: first, it is the second job that pays for it; second, it makes me use it much more often.


Mar 09, 2014 at 03:07 AM
Arka
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Money equals talent ?


If being a better photographer means making better images more often, it seems clear that money can make someone better. Money doesn't just buy gear; it buys education, travel opportunities, assistants, models, MUAs, and all manner of other things that can improve one's images. Of course, having an eye for good design and solid image-making makes it easier to spend loads of money wisely.

And before people start romanticizing HCB or some guy on the Internet making awesome photos with a pinhole camera, keep in mind that any of those people, if given enough money to travel widely and purchase better (not necessarily more advanced) equipment, could probably make better images,



Mar 09, 2014 at 03:22 AM
Paul Mo
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Money equals talent ?


Arka wrote:
Money doesn't just buy gear; it buys education, travel opportunities, assistants, models, MUAs, and all manner of other things that can improve one's images...


Yup, well said.



Mar 09, 2014 at 03:41 AM
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Money equals talent ?


anthonygh wrote:
Does having loads of money make a person a better photographer?

Only a loosely correlative relationship, not a causal one. And maybe even not that.

Loosely because, today, there are many good photographers who don't photograph for a living or for their main source of income. Even among those who do, they quickly come to the realization that good photography doesn't exactly put one on the path to fame or riches. So someone with a good job in a high-paying field will often have more access to gear than a 'working' photographer who only buys what is practical for his line of work.

And correlative -- Better photographers might tend to have a little more gear than worse ones, but only because they've been doing this longer or they've had time to buy more. Their quality doesn't necessarily improve with each piece of gear they buy. But someone who gives up the hobby or profession after only six months won't accumulate as much gear as someone who sticks with it for several years.

As for 'needing' gear:

Consider that most expensive of highly sought after gears do have some kind of cheaper alternative that is almost as good, for instance the 85mm f/1.2 -> 85mm f/1.8, 70-200 f/2.8 IS (v2) -> 70-200 f/4, etc. Even when you do 'need' a very specific piece of gear to do a specific job, there's often something out there for much less that will do it almost a well.

And honestly many good photographers will find a way around it; ie. if they need to do something specific, and don't have that gear, they'll figure out a way to do it with the gear they have. Whereas a bad photographer will just write it off, reasoning that "A" is needed to do "B".

I do agree with Arka's general statement, but I also think a fool and his money are soon separated. There's a lot of 'mining the miners' going on in photography, just as some spend money on gear, others spend money on workshop after workshop, and only manage to fool themselves into thinking they have become 'better'. But that said, money can buy free time, and certainly opportunity to create great photographs (which is what defines a great photographer).



Mar 09, 2014 at 04:04 AM
digitalbug30d
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Money equals talent ?


To know subject matter and composition,out weigh the tool used...like many things this takes trial and error and time.


Mar 09, 2014 at 04:21 AM
jj_glos
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Money equals talent ?


Money let's you buy the best tools for the job. You still need talent to use them well. Talent needs to be defined in this context though. For me talent isn't producing technically perfect photographs, that just comes from learning and experience. It's the content of the photograph that shows the talent.

Of course once you're past the moment of capture, your talent with post processing software also impacts the end result.



Mar 09, 2014 at 04:38 AM
Gyroscope
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Money equals talent ?


A talented photographer can get great results with crap gear but they can get even better results with high end gear. Some specialist areas do need expensive gear though - think wildlife photography where the supertelephotos really open up options you just don't have with consumer glass.


Mar 09, 2014 at 04:53 AM
Kolor-Pikker
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Money equals talent ?


I didn't really read most of this thread, but I'll chip in anyway.

If anything, money doesn't equal talent so much as being able to take photos that physically wouldn't be possible with cheap resources. If you have only an f/1.8 lens, then no amount of talent can make it an f/1.2 lens, and that's a stop of light that could be the difference between a useable photo and something destined for the trash bin; if your camera is clean as a whistle at ISO6400, then you take shots in situations that no one else can; and if your subject is far away and you can't get any closer, then you need a long lens.

And these benefits of "being able to do", do actually help you become a better photographer... to draw up an analogy, let's say you're an artist who wants to make engravings. To make a good engraving, you need a set of extremely sharp and quality tools, high quality material that you'll be etching, chemicals, a press, and so on. If you are a starting art student that no one wants to entrust with using high quality tools and materials because you'll "probably ruin them anyway", then your very idea of what this art could be is ruined by having to use a dull knife on some plexiglass and so on. Your first impression has been ruined before you even really started.

So technical quality does contribute a lot to the art aspect of photography, because better gear means less fighting limited features, poor ergonomics, and imaging characteristics that don't capture the scene the way you wanted to, this in turn leads to less frustration, which then leads to making better photos. And this concerns everything - you may not be as tempted to use poor lighting equipment; if you have an old and slow computer, you may not be as tempted to process many photos or with as complex edits because of how long it will take; and if you don't spend for a high quality printer or printing service, then ultimately your photos are no more than 1's and 0's on a hard drive. And as another person here wrote "Money doesn't just buy gear; it buys education, travel opportunities, assistants, models, MUAs, and all manner of other things that can improve one's images..." which is also true when applicable.

Taking inflation into account, photography is cheaper today than it has ever been in history, the least people can do is stop complaining about our miraculously low prices and spend money on what they need, to photograph what they need.



Mar 09, 2014 at 05:01 AM
Milan Hutera
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Money equals talent ?


anthonygh wrote:
Maybe not the right forum for this...but as a lifelong Canon user (since the 60s) and a viewer of this forum for a few years now and see the comments made...and recent comments on this forum have motivated this...here is the question:

Does having loads of money make a person a better photographer?

I say that as I am always surprised at the number of post where people have gear that is (from my humble perspective) totally superb and out of my reach..but they need to 'upgrade' to get the results they need.

I basically wander around with a G1X and a G111
...Show more

Let me put it this way. If I had loads of money and didn't have to have a day job with long hours, I'd be traveling and shooting. This would improve my skills dramatically, because I would have more experience about light, places, situations, people... So, in a way, yes.



Mar 09, 2014 at 05:35 AM
David Baldwin
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Money equals talent ?


To be a great photographer you don't need to have money to travel. Quite often I think many photographers would be more creative if they were given a camera and told to take ten images in their back garden. The idea that photographic creativity needs exotic new locations is widespread and very damaging. Its your vision that counts, not how fab your location is.

If you are a good enough photographer you could stay at home and make beautiful images of cracked paint like Minor White did, no studio, no Canon 1DX or air ticket required just an old window frame or peeling door. Lack of money to travel should make very little difference if you are creative. Put it this way, if you can't take interesting and creative images with a Rebel within a mile of your home then take up another form of art.

"Art is not to be found by touring to Egypt, China, or Peru; if you cannot find it at your own door, you will never find it"

~

Ralph Waldo Emerson

ps I am not saying don't travel with your camera, I'm saying you don't NEED to travel!

Edited on Mar 09, 2014 at 05:55 AM · View previous versions



Mar 09, 2014 at 05:48 AM
nrferguson
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Money equals talent ?


I started "serious" photography as a student with a Zenit E and then switched to Canon via AE-1, 30V, 10D etc etc up to what many people (particularly my wife) regard as ridiculously expensive gear. Do I take any better photographs than I did with my Zenit? No, but I take less poor ones. Is it because I have better gear, or am a more experienced photographer? I don't know, probably a bit of both!
Niall



Mar 09, 2014 at 05:50 AM
PetKal
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Money equals talent ?


Sorry folks, but I must say that so far this discussion, however thoughtful and enlightening it might be, is just not the same without G. Dan Mitchell's essays.


Mar 09, 2014 at 06:32 AM
Milan Hutera
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Money equals talent ?


David Baldwin wrote:
To be a great photographer you don't need to have money to travel. Quite often I think many photographers would be more creative if they were given a camera and told to take ten images in their back garden. The idea that photographic creativity needs exotic new locations is widespread and very damaging. Its your vision that counts, not how fab your location is.

If you are a good enough photographer you could stay at home and make beautiful images of cracked paint like Minor White did, no studio, no Canon 1DX or air ticket required just an old window
...Show more

Most people will be tired of their garden in a week - unless you live in some sort of castle. The back garden myth is one of the most repeated one and IMHO should be put to rest.



Mar 09, 2014 at 06:33 AM
David Baldwin
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Money equals talent ?


"The back garden myth is one of the most repeated one and IMHO should be put to rest"

Okay, I'll stick my neck out with my own shots. Although I often drive out to shoot locations I do actively make myself shoot in my back garden, the emphasis there is to make myself experiment. Judge for yourself, some shots are more successful than others:

Gallery 1 - shot totally in my back garden:

http://www.nightfolio.co.uk/night_photography_gardens.html

Gallery 2 - all but three taken in my back garden

http://www.nightfolio.co.uk/night_photography_moon.html

The key point I am trying to make is that there is no photographic necessity to travel, so in that sense a relative lack of money isn't necessarily a deal breaker.




Mar 09, 2014 at 06:42 AM
Milan Hutera
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Money equals talent ?


And I will provide some of my shots. Exactly 0 of them were shot in my garden. Some of them were taken within walking distance from my home (which is NOT the same thing as in my garden).

http://milanhutera.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/heart-of-fall.jpg

http://milanhutera.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/moonrise1a.jpg

http://milanhutera.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/cima-cadin-sunset-1.jpg

http://milanhutera.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/storms-end.jpg

http://milanhutera.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/stream.jpg

http://milanhutera.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/sage.jpg

http://milanhutera.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/perfect-solitude.jpg

http://milanhutera.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/night-of-wonders.jpg



Mar 09, 2014 at 06:54 AM
David Baldwin
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Money equals talent ?


Great, I am not seriously advising photographers that they shouldn't travel, I am saying that cultivating the attitude that you can only take images if you can travel is a bad thing. And some photographers do seem to believe that.

By the way I am already familiar with your website, and admire your night shots particularly. I am not getting at you, but yes I do seriously believe that if more photographers looked for shots closer to home, then they would develop a sharper photographic eye, and that applies to me as much as anyone else.

Edited on Mar 09, 2014 at 07:10 AM · View previous versions



Mar 09, 2014 at 07:03 AM
jjoejr
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Money equals talent ?


" People who 'need' 10 frames per second as eight doesn't cut it...another example."



I would like to constructively answer that question as it applies specifically to me. As 90% of the bird photos I take are inflight. Granted in regards to money, let me say I can only afford the least expensive 400mm/5.6 canon. But I made it my mission to squeeze every ounce of quality I can out of this lens. Have had the same lens for 8 years and only birding lens I possess. I can tell you 10 frames versus 8 shots a second does make a difference. I still have a 4 year old discontinued 1DIV. By getting two extra shots per second on a duck inflight where as you only have no more than 2 or 3 seconds from liftoff to out of sight makes a world of difference as to whether you get a clean shot or not. In 3 seconds I will add 6 more photos and one of these may yield the photos I desire. Such as wings extended, background enhanced, etc.. EX: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1278968 Sure I'd love to have more with the 1DX but can't afford it. All in all I take what equipment I have and do my best to squeeze every drop of usability out it. Hope this helps Anthonygh as to why more FPS is better. Have a nice day.
John



Mar 09, 2014 at 07:17 AM
chez
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Money equals talent ?




PetKal wrote:
Sorry folks, but I must say that so far this discussion, however thoughtful and enlightening it might be, is just not the same without G. Dan Mitchell's essays.


Quit poking the bear. Let it hibernate a bit more. We could all use the peace and quiet.



Mar 09, 2014 at 07:21 AM
Milan Hutera
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Money equals talent ?


David Baldwin wrote:
Great, I am not seriously advising photographers that they shouldn't travel, I am saying that cultivating the attitude that you can only take images if you can travel is a bad thing. And some photographers do seem to believe that.


Let me go back to my first post in this thread. Even if you want to focus on locations that are within walking distance from your home, or short drive from your home, you have to dedicate several hours to photograph the desired subject. This is especially challenging in winter, when the great light is either late in the morning (say 7:30 to 8 AM) or very early in the evening (4 - 4:30 PM). If you're working, that either means getting to work very late or leaving very early (usually just after lunch).

I'd say the shooting close to home is a form of "traveling". You need to spend some time getting to the place and it most probably cost you some money to get there.

And don't get me started on the subjects themselvest. Forests? We have ugly, young, busy forests aroud here, so I need to travel. Natural streams? We don't have any around here. Everything's paved and ugly. Mountains? We don't have any around here. I have to travel 300 kilometers to get to mountains.

So yes, if you like to play in your garden, that's fine. If you win awards, photo contests and have well read blogs about your garden photos, then great for you. You're probably one of the few...



Mar 09, 2014 at 07:23 AM
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