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Best way to post A7R images to FM
  
 
ebrandon
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p.1 #1 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


I'm getting a bit frustrated trying to post A7R images on FM. At home they look so sharp and detailed, and when I see them FM they often look really soft.

This seems at least subjectively worse with A7R images than with other cameras, perhaps because of the extreme downsampling that occurs.

My workflow is:
1) Edit raw image in LR5.3
2) Output as jpg with 95% quality, full resolution. Full resolution jpgs look good on my monitor at home.
3) Upload to smugmug.com
4) Post on FM with embedded links to smugmug's size "X3", which is quite big. Smugmug sharpening turned off.

I'll post some samples below.

The question is what is the BEST way to post pictures on FM to try to preserve that A7R look?

Here is a recent picture I shared on the A7R images thread:






Looks pretty bad, I think. But the 100% crops below show that the original image is nowhere near that bad.













Or this image, which looks pretty bad down sampled, I think.






The 100% crop shows a lot of detail.









Jan 30, 2014 at 08:58 AM
carstenw
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p.1 #2 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Do the shots look sharp after downsizing but before posting to Smugmug?

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1264767



Jan 30, 2014 at 09:00 AM
ebrandon
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p.1 #3 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


carstenw wrote:
Do the shots look sharp after downsizing but before posting to Smugmug?

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1264767


Thanks for the interesting link.

I don't downsize them. I post them to smugmug at full resolution and smugmug downsizes them.



Jan 30, 2014 at 09:02 AM
sebboh
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p.1 #4 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


downsize them to web size prior to uploading. otherwise you're stuck using whatever downsizing algorithm your hosting website uses, and that is almost certainly not optimized for 36mp files.




Jan 30, 2014 at 09:47 AM
LightShow
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p.1 #5 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


I just don't worry about it that much, it makes life easier that way.


Jan 30, 2014 at 01:35 PM
Picture This!
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p.1 #6 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


I would downsize the image using a good algorithm (eg: Lanczos) prior to uploading.


Jan 30, 2014 at 03:26 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #7 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


It's hard to tell how much downsample degradation is occurring by comparing 100% crops to the Smugmug-downsampled images. I would try this - downsample your original image using your preferred workflow (LR/PS) to the same dimensions as Smugmug's X3 resolution for A7r images (which I think is 1600x1068) and upload that image to smugmug. Then display two images on this thread for comparison - your manually downsampled image using Smugmug's "Original" sizing (full size) and Smugmug's X3 downsample of your original full-sized A7r image...then everyone can compare the two to see the effects of Smugmug's downsampling algorithm better.


Jan 30, 2014 at 04:07 PM
BlueBomberTurbo
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p.1 #8 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


If you want extremely high detail after downscaling, try this:
http://www.chrisfiorephotography.com/2013/07/04/review-c3c-image-size/

Keeps fine details without haloing.



Jan 30, 2014 at 06:52 PM
ebrandon
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p.1 #9 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Wow. The depth of knowledge on Fredmiranda is breathtaking. I've been reading & posting here continuously for nine years and had never seen any of those downscaling threads before.

It looks like learning how to downscale well is a pretty major undertaking involving lots of experimentation, scripting, and learning Russian. I'm up for it, but it will take a while.

In the meantime, I did the simplest possible thing, as snapsy suggested, and let LR do the downscaling instead of smugmug. Here are the results. What do you think?

Full Resolution jpg downscaled to 1600pixels by Smugmug:






Same image downscaled to 1600px by LR, LR "sharpen for screen" turned OFF.






Downscaled to 1600px by LR, LR "sharpen for screen" turned ON.






Full Resolution jpg downscaled to 1600pixels by Smugmug:






Same image downscaled to 1600px by LR, LR "sharpen for screen" turned OFF.






Downscaled to 1600px by LR, LR "sharpen for screen" turned ON.








Jan 30, 2014 at 07:48 PM
Makten
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p.1 #10 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Picture This! wrote:
I would downsize the image using a good algorithm (eg: Lanczos) prior to uploading.


Personally, I think Lanczos looks terrible for many photos (but works very well with some). My simplest downsizing that works good and is fairly effortless looks like this:

#1: Moderate sharpening during RAW conversion; e.g. 25-50 @ 1 pixel radius in ACR (and LR if it still works like ACR?).
#2: Bicubic resizing to 1.6667x the desired final width.
#3: "Sharpen" in Photoshop, or similar harsh sharpening method in other SW which doesn't do "halos".
#4: Bicubic resizing to final size.
#5: Unsharp mask with small radius and moderate amount; ~0.2 pixel radius and 50% in PS.

This flow is so easy that you don't have to run scripts, but it works almost as good as advanced, multistep sharpening, and it works with several input sizes (tried 12-36 mpix). And you can tweak it for every single photo in just a few seconds. Also, it doesn't affect eventual background blur too much.

An example from the a7 @ 1024 pixels height:


Wreck by Martin Hertsius, on Flickr



Jan 30, 2014 at 07:56 PM
 

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ebrandon
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p.1 #11 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Based on a quick read of the various downscaling threads people have linked to, and the experiment above (smugmug resizing vs. LR resizing) I came to the following conclusions:

1) The biggest problem is not the resizing algorithm used by Smugmug, images resized by Smugmug and LR look pretty identical.
2) The issue is that the downscaled images need to be sharpened after downscaling
3) But, the LR "sharpen for screen" export option uses a sharpening algorithm or setting that is not to my taste

So ... I decided to try going a different way and let Smugmug downscale AND sharpen my full size jpgs for the web.
Experimented a bit with different settings and this looks OK for a quick-and-dirty solution for now.
Smugmug sharpening settings:
Amount: 0.40
Radius: 1.0
Threshold: 0.05
Sigma: 1.0

Here are the results. What do you think?

Downscaled & Sharpened by Smugmug






Downscaled & Sharpened by Smugmug







Jan 30, 2014 at 08:22 PM
Picture This!
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p.1 #12 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Makten, I've had the opposite experience with Lanczos in that it works very well for downsizing. I've stopped doing multi step resize/sharpens. Instead I downsize with Lanczos and then apply sharpening before I convert to jpg for web. I've had much better success with retaining fine detail using Lanczos than with step downsizing like you indicate above. When you say Lanczos is terrible for many images, can you please elaborate ?




Jan 30, 2014 at 08:31 PM
Picture This!
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p.1 #13 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Here's one from last evening resized with lanczos3.





Link to the full size before resizing



Jan 30, 2014 at 08:43 PM
ebrandon
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p.1 #14 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


FYI. Smugmug is using Lanczos for downsizing.



Jan 30, 2014 at 08:49 PM
Makten
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p.1 #15 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Picture This! wrote:
Makten, I've had the opposite experience with Lanczos in that it works very well for downsizing. I've stopped doing multi step resize/sharpens. Instead I downsize with Lanczos and then apply sharpening before I convert to jpg for web. I've had much better success with retaining fine detail using Lanczos than with step downsizing like you indicate above. When you say Lanczos is terrible for many images, can you please elaborate ?


I did a little test last year to find an ultimate resizing technique, which included Lanczos and several types of multistep things, and I found out that I liked the standard bicubic solution much better. I also found out that it was the last downsizing step that was crucial for final sharpness, so I omitted the several steps and began using only two steps. And now I'm pretty happy with the results and my method works for almost any image of any original resolution.

I'll dig into the archive and see if I can find the images that were used when coming to this conclusion. What I do remember, is that Lanczos doesn't preserve local contrast very well. The images keep a lot of detail, but they look very flat and often artificial or "digital". Crisp but with artefacts.

Edit: Your example show exactly what I mean. No local contrast. It just looks dull, but with some crispness at the pixel level.


Edited on Jan 30, 2014 at 08:58 PM · View previous versions



Jan 30, 2014 at 08:51 PM
leo11877
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p.1 #16 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


ebrandon wrote:
I'm getting a bit frustrated trying to post A7R images on FM. At home they look so sharp and detailed, and when I see them FM they often look really soft.

This seems at least subjectively worse with A7R images than with other cameras, perhaps because of the extreme downsampling that occurs.

My workflow is:
1) Edit raw image in LR5.3
2) Output as jpg with 95% quality, full resolution. Full resolution jpgs look good on my monitor at home.
3) Upload to smugmug.com
4) Post on FM with embedded links to smugmug's size "X3", which is quite big. Smugmug sharpening turned off.

I'll post some samples
...Show more

Have you tried uploading to Amazon S3 bucket? It stores files as objects and gives you an URL for every "object" you upload to S3 service.




Jan 30, 2014 at 08:58 PM
Picture This!
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p.1 #17 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Makten wrote:
I did a little test last year to find an ultimate resizing technique, which included Lanczos and several types of multistep things, and I found out that I liked the standard bicubic solution much better. I also found out that it was the last downsizing step that was crucial for final sharpness, so I omitted the several steps and began using only two steps. And now I'm pretty happy with the results and my method works for almost any image of any original resolution.

I'll dig into the archive and see if I can find the images that were used when
...Show more


I have to disagree. The image is pretty much straight out of camera without any pp . This was a sample to illustrate resizing. If you look at the original size image vs the lanczos resized sample I posted, are you saying the lanczos resized version has lower local contrast than the original ? I dont think so. I added some USM to the resized version that's it. I'm switching back and forth between the original and resized and see no decrease in local contrast between the versions.

I'll be interested in your samples.



Jan 30, 2014 at 09:29 PM
theophilus
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p.1 #18 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


I have never understood posting a picture straight out of the camera. Shouldn't you fully process the image, sharpening and all, and then figure out if the downsampling isn't to your liking?


Jan 30, 2014 at 09:59 PM
Picture This!
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p.1 #19 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Let's not muddy the waters. Its a resizing exercise.

Is a sample backyard pic and the goal was "resizing". The point is - I dont see any difference in local contrast between the original and the resized version.



Jan 30, 2014 at 10:10 PM
andrenth
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p.1 #20 · Best way to post A7R images to FM


Any Gimp users at FM? How do you guys do you resizing?


Jan 31, 2014 at 03:57 PM
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