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Archive 2014 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor

  
 
Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


"Phase One today announced the world's first shipping CMOS sensor equipped medium format back."

"In a move that Phase One is to be congratulated for, the IQ250 back is available for order immediately from the company's world-wide network of VARS and resellers. Units should start to arrive in dealer's by the end of January or early February, according to Phase One. The price will be USD $34,990, or 24990 EUR."

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/iq250_back_announced.shtml

This does make it appear as if Hasselblad got word of Phases impending release and attempted to preempt them with their earlier announcement..but it's Phase who will be shipping first and already has test units available.



Jan 24, 2014 at 10:21 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


Also from that LL initial review of the Phase One CMOS back:

"We can also expect at least two other medium format back and camera makers to adopt this same sensor, though at this point we don't have any firm information on what their time-table's might be like."

Given the lack of MF players beyond Phase One, Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax, it seems very probable that the Pentax 645D replacement will likely have this same Sony CMOS sensor. That could be very exciting if it's priced the same as the current Pentax 645D.



Jan 24, 2014 at 10:32 AM
sflxn
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Also from that LL initial review of the Phase One CMOS back:

"We can also expect at least two other medium format back and camera makers to adopt this same sensor, though at this point we don't have any firm information on what their time-table's might be like."

Given the lack of MF players beyond Phase One, Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax, it seems very probable that the Pentax 645D replacement will likely have this same Sony CMOS sensor. That could be very exciting if it's priced the same as the current Pentax 645D.


Exciting news if he is referring to Pentax and Leica, but he might be referring to Leaf and Mamiya, both of whom are owned by Phase. From the price of the Phase, it looks like there will be no price break. The Pentax is the most Intriguing one to me. They imported many of the DSLR sensibilities like a modern focusing system and weather sealing. I am still waiting on an RX1M (with a grip and builtin viewfinder). I hope Fuji does something with this sensor.



Jan 24, 2014 at 10:54 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


sflxn wrote:
Exciting news if he is referring to Pentax and Leica, but he might be referring to Leaf and Mamiya, both of whom are owned by Phase. From the price of the Phase, it looks like there will be no price break. The Pentax is the most Intriguing one to me. They imported many of the DSLR sensibilities like a modern focusing system and weather sealing. I am still waiting on an RX1M (with a grip and builtin viewfinder). I hope Fuji does something with this sensor.


One of the reasons I think Ricoh/ Pentax will be using this sensor is the size. This new Sony sensor is the exact same size as used in the current 645D - 44mm x 33mm. The Leica S2 uses a slightly smaller sensor with a different aspect ratio - 45mm x 30mm. I suppose Leica could use it and either crop for the same ratio OR just utilize the new aspect ratio.

I suspect that since LL stated two more "back and camera makers", that does not include any other Phase One brands as Phase One is still the maker there. I think all will be known/ revealed by at least Photokina later this year and possibly even next month at the CP+ show in Japan.



Jan 24, 2014 at 11:16 AM
sflxn
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


I just finished reading the getdpi Threads on the new Phase back. They're expressing the same thoughts I had. Now that they have CMOS, the apparent diff between MF and 35mm becomes more apparent. No EVF, slower shooting speeds, no peaking, less capable autofocus.

I feel for Hassy. They had a relationship with Sony and Phase ships before them. I Can only speculate they're working on something bigger. Sony M7R (with this sensor) with Zeiss lenses to be rebranded as the Hassy Super Nova? I would still prefer an RX1M with optimized Zeiss lens.



Jan 24, 2014 at 11:41 AM
joe88
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Most of the lenses from the last 25 years or so are up to the task of the larger sensels/ pixels of MF. For instance, I had exceptional results from a late 70's T* 50mm C on the more demanding Sony 24MP FF a900 even wide open. Lenses like the 100, 120, 180 would be have no issues whatsoever. Tolerances though could be an issue I suppose - not sure how much.


The V lenses won't hold up for digital backs 40MP and up. Sure, they can be used for digital and IQ is still excellent but they will not be anywhere close compared to Hassy H or Leica S lenses on some focal lenght. I don't think there are many Hassy V users who would be willing to fork out upwards of $10k for a digital back? Maybe with CMOS, this gives us hope. I would love to shoot the V series with an affordable digital back, even if its a crop sensor 6x6 format is nice.

I think the upcoming Pentax 645D replacement would probably be CMOS, Hopefully at about the same price point with the current one?



Jan 24, 2014 at 11:54 AM
rscheffler
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


Difficult to predict what Leica will do with a future S series upgrade. I think many expected the current M to use a Sony CMOS sensor, but it turned out to be a special development with CMOSIS. Considering that Leica often seems to like sourcing uniquely tailored solutions than using what everyone else uses, I'd lean towards expecting something like a CMOSIS sensor.

But I definitely expect this sensor to appear in a future Pentax. While Ricoh is at it, why don't they finally deliver a 35mm FF model?



Jan 24, 2014 at 12:11 PM
sflxn
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


Leica S used a Kodak sensor just like Pentax. Who Knows why they used CMOSYS for the M. Perhaps CMOSYS was willing to design micro lens that works well with M lenses.


Jan 24, 2014 at 12:56 PM
joe88
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


sflxn wrote:
Who Knows why they used CMOSYS for the M. Perhaps CMOSYS was willing to design micro lens that works well with M lenses.


The M(Type240) is a CMOS sensor rather than a CCD sensor used in the M9/M8/Monochrom and Leica S/S2. Yes, there is also specially designed microlenses on the Cmosis sensor for the Leica M. But even the older CCD sensor on the M9 had microlenses.



Jan 24, 2014 at 01:02 PM
sflxn
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor




joe88 wrote:
The M(Type240) is a CMOS sensor rather than a CCD sensor used in the M9/M8/Monochrom and Leica S/S2. Yes, there is also specially designed microlenses on the Cmosis sensor for the Leica M. But even the older CCD sensor on the M9 had microlenses.


My point was they chose CMOSYS over Sony for that reason and not just to be different. My guess is the Leica s will use this Sony Sensor. It's probably the most economical for all parties.

Next gen 54 mp FF Sony sensor in an A7R w/ Canon TSE lenses seem to make the most sense to me over getting a digital back. that's what , 2 years away?



Jan 24, 2014 at 01:12 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


sflxn wrote:
My guess is the Leica s will use this Sony Sensor. It's probably the most economical for all parties.


So, you think Leica would use a sensor of a different aspect ratio than they currently use OR would just crop the Sony sensor, resulting in less resolution than others who use the sensor?



Jan 24, 2014 at 01:16 PM
douglasf13
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


If Sony can sell the entire A7 for $1600, it's hard for me to imagine that the cost of scaling that sensor up from 24x36 to only 33x44 requires a cost of $25,000+ per chip.

The real excitement of this, for me, is that Sony could be the harbinger of more reasonably priced medium format cameras in the future. I don't think they'll be $2000 anytime soon, but maybe even the 645D could come down in a price a little bit, if Pentax contracts Sony for their next chip. I think a $5K Pentax 645D with this chip would be hard to ignore, but maybe I don't completely understand the economics of scaling these chips up.



Jan 24, 2014 at 01:22 PM
joe88
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


sflxn wrote:
I feel for Hassy. They had a relationship with Sony and Phase ships before them. I Can only speculate they're working on something bigger. Sony M7R (with this sensor) with Zeiss lenses to be rebranded as the Hassy Super Nova? I would still prefer an RX1M with optimized Zeiss lens.


I don't feel for Hassy. They seem to be getting worse each day. First the Luna and then this week to announce a camera that is not ready for the market, presumably just to preempt Phase One's IQ250 launch.. Sounds like a cheap shot from their marketing team?

If only Hasselblad launched a digital Xpan instead of the Luna ... sigh..

Quickly reading some internet chatter on the new Sony sensor .. useable iso6400 and exposures of 1 hour..wow,... Really hope this sensor makes it into the Pentax 645 II.



Jan 24, 2014 at 01:27 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


joe88 wrote:
If only Hasselblad launched a digital Xpan instead of the Luna ... sigh..







Jan 24, 2014 at 01:31 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


douglasf13 wrote:
If Sony can sell the entire A7 for $1600, it's hard for me to imagine that the cost of scaling that sensor up from 24x36 to only 33x44 requires a cost of $25,000+ per chip.

The real excitement of this, for me, is that Sony could be the harbinger of more reasonably priced medium format cameras in the future. I don't think they'll be $2000 anytime soon, but maybe even the 645D could come down in a price a little bit, if Pentax contracts Sony for their next chip. I think a $5K Pentax 645D with this chip would
...Show more

It would be awesome if that happened but...the FF 24MP Sony sensor is pretty much ubiquitous now in so many FF cameras that it's achieved production quantity resulting in the scale necessary to dramatically reduce it's price. Even if this Sony MF sensor was in every MF camera sold in a year, the quantity would still be a tiny number by comparison? So, I think it might be a while before we see significant MF sales that could result in the sort of economies of scale needed, but who knows... If the price were to drop fast enough ($4999!), it sure would get my attention. The other part of the equation, as I understand it, is that even going up a little in size with a sensor incurs a significant price jump due to waste/ flaws. I think we need Pentax, Nikon and Canon in the game to really increase MF sales. Maybe that's coming (as they all aim higher up the food chain for profits).



Jan 24, 2014 at 01:34 PM
joe88
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


The PhaseOne IQ250 is available for V mount users if anyone is interested ... Now take that Hassy

only $34,500



Jan 24, 2014 at 01:55 PM
sflxn
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


It's a chicken and egg problem. With only 6000 MF cameras shipped a year, they must Keep high to fund R&D. Once they lower prices, expectations changes, and they can't raise them again without a lot of furor. To make the economics work, they'd need guarantees that lowering prices will bring on higher sales , high enough to offset the price reductions. Unfortunately, it's a risky move, where the worst case is becoming a footnote in history.

It's going to be up to Pentax or Sony to bring out a lower priced MF camera. The $5000 price for a 645 D mark 2 with modern conveniences like weather sealing, live view, and fast AF would be tremendously tempting. However, the market for MF in landscape and architectural may come to an end when Sony puts a 54 mp FF sensor in an A7R. Who needs a clunky technical camera if you can slap a Canon TSE lens on such a 35mm FF sensor? What happens to fashion and portrait photography once global shutters can flash sync at 1/1000 or higher? CMOS won't save medium format.

Edited on Jan 24, 2014 at 02:02 PM · View previous versions



Jan 24, 2014 at 01:57 PM
douglasf13
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


Tariq Gibran wrote:
It would be awesome if that happened but...the FF 24MP Sony sensor is pretty much ubiquitous now in so many FF cameras that it's achieved production quantity resulting in the scale necessary to dramatically reduce it's price. Even if this Sony MF sensor was in every MF camera sold in a year, the quantity would still be a tiny number by comparison? So, I think it might be a while before we see significant MF sales that could result in the sort of economies of scale needed, but who knows... If the price were to drop fast enough ($4999!),
...Show more

Oh, I agree with everything you said. I'm just thinking that there's no way it costs Sony as much to make these things as the usual MFDB chip makers, and Sony might even be motivated to eat some of the initial cost if they think it'll sell.

I know there is generally a pretty big step up in cost from aps-c to FF, because, at least as of a few years ago, the steppers out there were only allowing a 26mmx33mm maximum size, so FF chips had to be stitched. Interestingly, the 33x44 chip that Sony is putting in these new MFDBs would probably still only require a single stitch with the same machines. If they're still using these 26x33 machines, I'd guess that the cost jump from going aps-c to FF is larger than the cost from going FF to 33x44, but who knows? If we were talking about a new Sony 40.4mm x 53.7mm sensor, I could see a huge jump in price, but, with 33x44, I'm not so sure. 33x44 is kind of the "APS-H" of the medium format world.





Jan 24, 2014 at 02:01 PM
rscheffler
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


I would expect the current Pentax 645 to drop to ~$5000 as an entry level option and the CMOS version to take the $9999 price point.

Maybe a direction for MF to differentiate from the encroachment of 35mm FF is sensor sizes at the native film sizes? I guess a problem is whether such sizes are economically viable. Another problem is whether film-era lenses will perform well with such sensors. It will also be a problem with the current lines of digital-optimized lenses covering smaller image circles...

Looking at the history of photography, the trend has always been size/format reduction. Maybe MF is just coming to a natural conclusion?



Jan 24, 2014 at 02:24 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Hasselblad to launch 50MP MF camera using CMOS sensor


sflxn wrote:
It's going to be up to Pentax or Sony to bring out a lower priced MF camera. The $5000 price for a 645 D mark 2 with modern conveniences like weather sealing, live view, and fast AF would be tremendously tempting. However, the market for MF in landscape and architectural may come to an end when Sony puts a 54 mp FF sensor in an A7R. Who needs a clunky technical camera if you can slap a Canon TSE lens on such a 35mm FF sensor? What happens to fashion and portrait photography once global shutters can flash sync at
...Show more

Yes, agree it will likely take a Ricoh/ Pntax or Sony to bring the price down. The Architectural, landscape catalog/ fashion and serious portrait groups though are extremely sensitive to IQ (and not just resolution but the look/quality one can get from MF). If the price was close enough, I don't think many in this group would opt for the 54MP 35 FF option over the 50MP MF option (if the rest of the equation was close enough - ie the mythical Pentax 645D II specs). I do believe there are enough users out there who would jump at a 5K MF option over a smaller format that have previously been put off by MF price and capabilities. Hopefully, we get to see how this experiment goes.



Jan 24, 2014 at 02:29 PM
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