Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Post-processing & Printing | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
  

Archive 2014 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??

  
 
OntheRez
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


I acknowledge that my last formal encounter with geometry was in the previous century, but still I thought I understood basic 2 dimensional space fairly well. Seems that I don't.

Recently I've had an upsurge in people wanting my pix printed large. A very good thing from my perspective. I'm running a Epson 3880 so my max size is in the 19x30 range. One complication is that most people want the picture framed. Now I live in what is labeled as an "economically disadvantaged" area. In plain English it means the mine closed and the survivors work hard to keep even.

If I were to take my prints to a professional framer there would be the 5 hour round trip, plus the cost would be prohibitive to virtually all my customers. So I've been trying to use inexpensive pre-made frames from places like Michaels (a chain of craft stores for those of you not in the USA) or IKEA, etc.

Frames claim to be sizes like 11" x 14" but will only take an 8x10 pix. Other frames have an open area of 16x20 and other standard sounding dimensions. Bundled backing and glass kits can go up to 18x26. I'm guessing some assumptions are made about matting, but there's no information included with the frames.

So my questions are several.
I print from Lr. (I find Ps much harder to work with.) In a recent attempt to make a full 16x20 print, I set the paper to 17x22 and the cell size in the print module at 16x20. Borders were at the .17 minimum. I've made 3 attempts to get this to print this way, but I'm getting a height that is correct, but the width is only about 13.375". While this is by no means museum quality paper, it's pretty good and I hate wasting it.

The pix is from a FF 1DsIII and has no cropping in PP. Trying a down sized print for 13x19 paper I still end up with a vertical dimension close to what I want but the horizontal is way narrow.

When I work with a paper that is 17x22 or 11x14 or 13x19 what is the expected size that will be printed on each?

So what am I missing here? Aspect ratio? I thought what we label as full frame is in a 3x4 format which would yield a 15x20 print? My narrow dimension is much more than 1/2" off.

I've whacked around in Google some but haven't come up with a systematic discussion of frame size, mat size, print size, etc. If someone's aware of such a resource I'd love to know about it. I'm capable of making frames but have no experience cutting mats and fear I'd go thru a lot of cardboard before I was any good at it.

Anyway, as you can tell, I've got my self all "bolloxed up" as my Ozzy friends would tell me. Anybody who regularly frames or get their pix framed willing to share some tips?

Thx,
Robert



Jan 06, 2014 at 04:32 PM
cwebster
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??



First, if you have a "full frame" DSLR, the aspect ratio is 3:2 which translates to 10 X 15, 12 X 18, 14 X 21, etc.

Frame sizes do not correspond to aspect ratios generally because you are expected to mat the photo to separate it from the glass. Mat openings are typically sized for 3:2 aspect ratio prints, minus a small margin for mounting.

So I typically mount a 10 X 15 print in a 15 X 20 frame, which allows 2-1/2" border all around the print opening. You can get frames at Michaels and order mats and backing boards from some place like framedestination.com or matcutter.com. That's what I do most often.

Most of your confusion is because of the wrong aspect ratio numbers, get straight with that and the rest will fall into place.

<Chas>



Jan 06, 2014 at 06:40 PM
danski0224
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Native paper sizes for a full frame sensor are: 4" x 6", 8" x 12", 20" x 30" or some other 3:2 ratio.

If you want to print on anything else, yet maintain the "full frame" photograph, you will have an unsymmetrical border (narrow on the narrow paper dimension, wide on the long paper dimension). As an example, my "full frame" print on 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper has a (roughly) 5/16" border on the 8.5" sides and a .75" border on the 11" sides.

Maintaining a symmetrical border requires cropping.

Stuff like borderless printing on a 16 x 20 sheet of paper stretches the image.

That's about all I have figured out so far



Jan 06, 2014 at 06:43 PM
colinm
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Indeed, aspect ratio sounds like the missing link. You have to crop to have a 16x20 (or 11x14, or 8x10, or...) from a 35mm (or APS) file. Standard paper sizes predate the rise of 35mm and most are a completely different ratio from your film/sensor. Loose framing is your friend if you want to fill a traditional standard-size page.

I hit the same problem a couple times a year when I take the odd retail portraiture job from a long-time client. Gotta beat myself about the head with the "loose framing" mantra while shooting; I never printed cropped in the darkroom, my personal work is shot and printed full-frame, and most of my paying work is in or damn close to 35mm's 2:3 ratio. If I frame in camera for family shots, people go limbless and headless come finishing time when everyone wants 8x10s.


When I work with a paper that is 17x22 or 11x14 or 13x19 what is the expected size that will be printed on each?


Whatever size you want. It could be 2"x2" in a field of paper white, it could be full-bleed off the edges of the page. Horses for courses, strokes for folks, &c.

To squeeze an entire 35mm image into a standard page with a decent-looking mat (i.e. not totally out-of-whack differences in border size), the unofficial standard has been to print down and have some paper white reveal all around. If you're doing art, this can also leave a convenient place to sign and title your print directly, making the white space look all the more intentional!



Jan 06, 2014 at 06:51 PM
deepjay
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Robert,
The 3:2 ratio infrequently seems to apply to ready made frames. If you want to fit a print into one of them, then figure that with a 1 inch margin, which results in 2 inches less than the frame size, and do a custom--or as it is described in Bridge, Normal--crop to that size. For instance, if you have an 18X26 frame, you will crop the print to 16X24, which interestingly enough turns out to be 2:3. An 11X14 frame requires a crop to 9X12, 3:4. You have to use your sense of proportion when cropping. May not be perfect, but close enough (for government work).
The mat must be the size of the frame. I have been using Scotch positionable mounting adhesive, which works well to fasten print to mat, but I have no idea of its permanence. I last got it at Amazon.
I hope this makes sense--good luck.
David



Jan 06, 2014 at 07:12 PM
OntheRez
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


I appreciate all the responses. I did sit down and do the simple math and realized that so called "full frame" the equivalence of 35mm file is 3:2. I confess I don't understand why frame size, and paper size seem to have no correlation to native file aspect ratio. I admit that I hate to crop full frame images unless there is an artistically compelling reason to do so. Guess I have to re-think that. I noted another thread, the museum glass one, that people are buying pre-made frames with matting and just printing to fit into it. I guess for now that's what I'll have to learn to do.

Thanks for the tips,
Robert



Jan 07, 2014 at 10:12 AM
sbeme
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


I also order custom frame sizes thru framedestination and the upcharge is small. I sometimes order 5 or more frames for savings, planning 16x20 prints for example.
You are probably aware of the crop tool in LR. Good way to set up the needed aspect ratio for printing, framing and decide how you want to optimize the crop.

Scott



Jan 07, 2014 at 11:29 AM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Here is a link to a blog post I wrote on this subject complete with math and recommendations for a custom on-line frame source.

I have also used frame destinations and highly reccomend them, I switched just to get the wider oak frames I prefer.

I use the Epson 3800 which I think is similar to the 3880. I am surprised you can use 19 inch paper.

I generally buy 24x36 inch paper and cut it to size.

http://ben-egbert-photo.com/?page_id=790



Jan 07, 2014 at 12:13 PM
15Bit
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


OntheRez wrote:
I confess I don't understand why frame size, and paper size seem to have no correlation to native file aspect ratio.
Robert


Bloody annoying isn't it? I suspect the origin of some of these sizes and ratios are lost in the mists of history, maybe related somehow to some ancient cameras, their film size and contact printing. I would note that not all modern cameras have 3x2 sensors - a lot of compacts are 4x3, mobile phones follow their screen ratio, and of course 1:1 has been quite common for larger formats.

One other thing to watch in the LR print module is the borders it sets on images - i've found in the past that these can slightly affect the aspect ratio if you aren't watching closely.

Oh and the frame-mat size combinations from IKEA are just plain random.

My annoyance with these ratios is sort of the opposite to yours - i routinely crop images to an aspect ratio that i think works well for the image, but in doing so i am effectively determining the image print size there and then. So in order to get prints at the right size (area, not aspect ratio) i then end up later cropping to a ratio that doesn't work as well. Why should i be stuck printing 3:2 ratio images at 6x4 inches and 4:5 ratio images at 8x10 inches? There could be more variety in the standard frames available at each aspect ratio.



Jan 07, 2014 at 12:17 PM
cwebster
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


15Bit wrote:
Bloody annoying isn't it? I suspect the origin of some of these sizes and ratios are lost in the mists of history, maybe related somehow to some ancient cameras, their film size and contact printing. I would note that not all modern cameras have 3x2 sensors - a lot of compacts are 4x3, mobile phones follow their screen ratio, and of course 1:1 has been quite common for larger formats.

One other thing to watch in the LR print module is the borders it sets on images - i've found in the past that these can slightly affect the aspect
...Show more

That's not a problem if you learn how to cut custom mats to go in standard frame sizes. You pretty much always need a to put a mat between the print and the glass/plastic of the frame to protect the print, so why not make it a custom size. Lots of resources for learning how to cut custom mats on the web, but I like Logan's products and tutorials http://www.logangraphic.com/

<Chas>




Jan 07, 2014 at 02:41 PM
acjd
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


15Bit wrote:
Bloody annoying isn't it? I suspect the origin of some of these sizes and ratios are lost in the mists of history, maybe related somehow to some ancient cameras, their film size and contact printing.


8" x 10", 16" x 20", Think large format 8 x 10 or 4 x 5 negatives.

2 x 3 is small format (35mm).



Jan 08, 2014 at 08:03 PM
Camperjim
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


OntheRez wrote:
I appreciate all the responses. I did sit down and do the simple math and realized that so called "full frame" the equivalence of 35mm file is 3:2. I confess I don't understand why frame size, and paper size seem to have no correlation to native file aspect ratio. I admit that I hate to crop full frame images unless there is an artistically compelling reason to do so. Guess I have to re-think that. I noted another thread, the museum glass one, that people are buying pre-made frames with matting and just printing to fit into it. I guess
...Show more
I absolutely would not crop my images just to fit paper sizes. First, I compose my images in camera. Changing the crop would alter the entire composition. Second, this would be a losing battle. Different sizes of paper have different aspect ratios so you would need to make different crops for different paper sizes. I think I have found a simple solution. For small prints or proofs, I use 8.5x11 paper and just give up the idea of filling the paper. My prints are a bit over 7" and a bit less than 11". For larger prints, I print 12x18 on 13x19 paper or 16x24 on 17x25 paper. I love the Red River papers because they stock 17x25 paper whereas many other manufacturers stop at 17x22. Cutting your own mats is easy. Frames can be ordered at any size. Standard sizes do work. The ones that fit are: 16x22 or 18x24 or 22x28.



Jan 09, 2014 at 08:13 AM
OntheRez
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Camperjim wrote:
I absolutely would not crop my images just to fit paper sizes. First, I compose my images in camera. Changing the crop would alter the entire composition. Second, this would be a losing battle. Different sizes of paper have different aspect ratios so you would need to make different crops for different paper sizes. I think I have found a simple solution. For small prints or proofs, I use 8.5x11 paper and just give up the idea of filling the paper. My prints are a bit over 7" and a bit less than 11". For larger prints, I print 12x18
...Show more

Jim, I'm copying your suggestions to a my idea data base. Really useful information here. Thanks.

As an aside I entered my first juried art show last week and was not only accepted but awarded an honorable mention. Both judges comment on my imperfect framing/matting and marked me down accordingly. Guess I need to learn. something. It looks as if with the right tools, maybe a 40" Logan, mat cutting would not be so bad. I can make my own wood frames so I'm thinking of just printing the pix the size I want it out and do my own frame and mat. Cost of mat material is a bit mind boggling.

Thanks for all the great ideas.

Robert



Jan 12, 2014 at 05:15 PM
Camperjim
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Robert, congratulations on an honorable mention. That is quite an accomplishment for a first show especially with presentation issues. Your images must be very special.

I bought a 32" Logan. I doubt I will ever need bigger. I had also planned on making my own frames, but I my tools are still in storage and I need 7 more frames in the next few weeks. I am pretty happy with Nielson aluminum frames. The sizes I mentioned are in the range of about $15-20. Not counting all the work, homemade wood frames would not save that much. The cost of the print, plus the mat, plus the frame, plus acrylic gets high enough that trying to save just a few dollars is probably not worth the effort. Of course, that changes if you like larger frames. But then with a thicker frame, you need a wider mat which means a bigger frame and more expensive acrylic.

BTW, my post included an error. For the 16x24 prints, I am using 20x28 frames; i.e., 2" wide mat borders. The 2" mat looks good with narrow frames, but a larger frame edge would mean going to 3-4" mat borders and substantially bigger frames. I am trying to use mats of 20" or less on the short side. I can get 20x30 mat at a pretty decent price. Larger mats are more expensive but there is another cost. Shipping goes way up because larger sizes are considered oversized.



Jan 13, 2014 at 12:54 AM
Imagemaster
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Unless you enjoy making your own prints, as well as matting and framing them, why bother?

If you use digital mats and frames, you can have prints mounted on foam made by Costco or elsewhere, and deliver a finished product cheaper than you can print, mat, & frame a picture.

From a normal viewing distance, you can't tell a digital mat & frame apart from a real matted & framed print. The finished product is also a lot lighter. Have a look at some examples here:

http://www.shutterfreaks.com/Actions/ACsBigFrames.html




Jan 14, 2014 at 11:59 AM
OntheRez
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Imagemaster wrote:
Unless you enjoy making your own prints, as well as matting and framing them, why bother?

If you use digital mats and frames, you can have prints mounted on foam made by Costco or elsewhere, and deliver a finished product cheaper than you can print, mat, & frame a picture.

From a normal viewing distance, you can't tell a digital mat & frame apart from a real matted & framed print. The finished product is also a lot lighter. Have a look at some examples here:

http://www.shutterfreaks.com/Actions/ACsBigFrames.html



Interesting concept. I checked the link you provided and they do look good. Another FMer PM me with a short tutorial on framing within Ps. My question is how do you mount something like this? It would seem that you'd have to have a glass or acrylic front, a backing of some kind (foam board), but then who do you to hold it all together? How does the customer hang it? I'm real interested. How do you go from having the printed mat and pix to a picture on the wall?

Really interested in how you do it,

Robert



Jan 14, 2014 at 09:31 PM
Imagemaster
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


OntheRez wrote:
Interesting concept. I checked the link you provided and they do look good. Another FMer PM me with a short tutorial on framing within Ps. My question is how do you mount something like this? It would seem that you'd have to have a glass or acrylic front, a backing of some kind (foam board), but then who do you to hold it all together? How does the customer hang it? I'm real interested. How do you go from having the printed mat and pix to a picture on the wall?

Really interested in how you do it,

Robert


Don't get out much, do you? Just take (or send on-line) your image to a print outlet and they print and mount it on Gatorboard, or whatever, and it is ready to hang. No glass or acrylic involved. Most print shops will have samples hanging on their walls. Costco stores have samples near their photo counter.

http://photos.walmart.com/walmart/productdetail/prd=MountedPhoto

http://www.mpix.com/products/prints/mounting-and-canvas

http://www.nationsphotolab.com/mounting.aspx

http://www.bayphoto.com/mounting-finishing/bamboo-standout/

http://www.posterjack.ca/frameless.php?gclid=CNLX-LrG_7sCFeU5QgodAlcAHw

http://www.mpixpro.com/mounting.aspx

http://www.digitalpro.ca/framing.html



Jan 15, 2014 at 01:14 AM
OntheRez
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Imagemaster,

I do like making my own prints and you're right. I don't get out much. The nearest city of any sort is a 5 hour round trip and I truly hate the place. Part of why I'm considering doing my own framing is that I have the tools and skills to do nice wooden frames at a reasonable price. It would be basically be buying the proper premilled trim material, running a rabbit to hold the material, cutting a 45º angle, and assemble. I have the tools and skills such that wouldn't be difficult. Glass and mat are the challenges.

Robert

Great set of links. I'll look them over and see if it's more cost effective to use an outside source.



Jan 15, 2014 at 09:44 PM
Monito
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


Imagemaster wrote Unless you enjoy making your own prints, as well as matting and framing them, why bother? If you use digital mats and frames, you can have prints mounted on foam made by Costco or elsewhere, and deliver a finished product cheaper than you can print, mat, & frame a picture.

Even so, you still have to choose the print size and the cropping. The aspect ratios have to match or you get the problem the OP is experiencing.

Mounting on foam is very bad. Foam outgases. Gluing to foam can't be reversed without paying expensive art conservator hours. It is the opposite of archival.



Jan 16, 2014 at 12:24 PM
Imagemaster
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · print size, paper size, frame size - What??


So what? Simply enter the same ratio for the Rectangular Marquee Tool as the print you want and crop. Besides that, if the OP is making his own frames, he can make them any size he wants. He is also not restricted to the standard 8x10, 11x14, 16x20, etc. ratios. He can print and frame a 4x20 if he wants to.

Yeah, yeah, mounting on foam is very bad. I guess that is why all those links I show do it. I'm pretty sure there is a substrate between the foam and the print. And who is talking about archival prints?

I was simply suggesting a easier and cheaper alternative to him making his own prints, mounting them, matting them, and framing them, with or without glass. And he can do it all by mail.

I made and sold archival prints and 99% of my customers did not give a whit about whether or not they were archival.



Jan 16, 2014 at 01:09 PM
1
       2       end




FM Forums | Post-processing & Printing | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.