Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

  

Archive 2014 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking

  
 
MichaelErlewin
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


The Sony a7r menu system is, well, confusing. It is almost like they took a perfectly good menu system, broke it into pieces, put the pieces in a paper bag, shook the bag, and then randomly picked out the pieces (like at a lottery drawing) and placed them back in the interface. Anyway, enough rant. I finally just held my nose and jumped in, determined to make the a7r work, warts and all.

And the long and the short of it is the Sony a7r can make a good (or reasonable) camera system for close-up and macro stacking. And IMO it is sharper (or so it seems) than my beloved Nikon D800E, so that's them apples.

I know it is hard to look at these tiny pictures posted here and see all that much, but it might give you at least some idea. This is only one session and you can't judge a camera (at least I can't, but I try) without working with it for a while, but I would say that the Sony A7r can go head-to-head with the D800E and come out smiling. It pains me to learn this, because the D800E is a whole lot easier to use, in general. And it is also strong enough to support large lenses like the Zeiss Otus 55mm APO lens used here. I had to put the Sony A7r on a nodal slide and support the lens hood on the slide with some folded foam, and so on. This was pointed out by Lloyd Chambers in his "Guide to Mirrorless Cameras" column, which has been a valuable resource.

What is shown here is a shot each from the D800E and the a7r, both with the Otus 55mm APO lens, and both stacked. Actually something went not-so-good with the D800E stack, so it is not as sharp as the a7r, but I will run that again. Still you can see that both cameras can produce a pretty good result.

Next are a couple of close-ups of the center of the Gerbera flower, in this case the stacked image done on the A7r and a single shot at f/8 on the D800. In the single D800E shot, you can see detail that I can't see in the stacked D800 shot, so I must have messed up that stack. It is easy to do.

So, what am I learning? Well, I am learning that I might just have to keep this little a7r, even though it is a pain to use. I would love to send it back and wait for Nikon to provide me with a great EVF, but I am not one to let a good camera get out of my grasp.

I should also point out that the shots taken on the D800E were all done without an adapter, since the Zeiss Otus has a Nikon mount. However, the Zeiss Otus on the a7r has the Novoflex adaptor between it and the sensor, and I have no idea how that coupling will affect the images coming from the Otus 55mm compared. Perhaps one of you reading this can enlighten me?

Sony got the sensor right, but they did not do so well with other parts of the a7r. I wish it were a pro-body, so that it could easily handle large lenses like the Zeiss Otus 55mm. I must say that the Novoflex adapter is worth every penny. It seems stronger than either the camera or the lens, so that was money well spent.

I don't like the absence of Mirror-Up (I know it is a mirrorless camera), because the shake from the shutter is obvious and has to be dealt with. I hope there is a firmware work-around coming so we can have more peace of mind, especially those of us who may have to stack 100 layers on the A7r. Ouch!

Anyway, the pesky little a7r didn't get sent back…. today. I have to play with it some more.

Photos are the first four here:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/98006906@N05]



Jan 01, 2014 at 05:20 PM
mco_970
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


It would be cool to keep the macro related threads in your original post instead of making a new one each time. Otherwise it all gets lost much easier.


Jan 01, 2014 at 05:35 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


But how do you get famous if you don't start lots and lots of little threads?

I can't keep track of it all. Does the A7/A7R work for macro and stacking or not. I thought I understood it over in the other thread, but here I am, getting lost all over again.



Jan 01, 2014 at 05:51 PM
mco_970
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


Carsten, Bob, don't make me get the belt. Michael does have some nice macro work on his Flickr stream.

Michael, if you weren't around for trollmageddon 2013, we recently had a forum troll making a new thread for all of his related posts, and people are still a bit, uhhhhh, edgy.



Jan 01, 2014 at 06:09 PM
Simon Kennedy
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


mco_970 wrote:
Carsten, Bob, don't make me get the belt. Michael does have some nice macro work on his Flickr stream.

Michael, if you weren't around for trollmageddon 2013, we recently had a forum troll making a new thread for all of his related posts, and people are still a bit, uhhhhh, edgy.


With apologies to Michael for OT - did the troll in question get banned in the end? Things seem to have improved drastically in this respect.

Back to Michael - very nice stacked macro shots on your stream. I would imagine that what you want for macro is the most DOF possible. I have bought an A7r for architecture where similarly narrow DOF is the opposite of a requirement, but I bought it mainly for dynamic range and colour improvements over my 5d mk ii. I have not had a chance to use it at all yet.

I hope it will work out for you in the end (and for me ).

Happy New Year to all on the forum!



Jan 01, 2014 at 06:40 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


Simon Kennedy wrote:
With apologies to Michael for OT - did the troll in question get banned in the end? Things seem to have improved drastically in this respect.


He did. I think some of his posts (all?) also got removed. He seemed nice enough in between, but he was even more of a troublemaker than I am, overall.

Happy New Year to everyone!



Jan 01, 2014 at 06:45 PM
mco_970
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


Carsten, you have not even rated my 'Hide Me' list once. Being outspoken does not make you a troublemaking troll.

Sorry for going all tangential, OP.



Jan 01, 2014 at 06:53 PM
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


'I wish it were a pro-body, so that it could easily handle large lenses like the Zeiss Otus 55mm.'

How much would you pay for the pleasure, to what extent would the ultra clear design brief be compromised, and how heavy should the camera be?

The obvious huge image quality is the big underlying reason for much of the incessant 'I want this, I want that' talk about the a7r. Funny.




Jan 01, 2014 at 07:40 PM
Luvwine
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


I hope this is not offensive, but in looking at the stacked focus images--especially the first couple, they look so clear as to seem fake--almost like plastic flowers look to me. Is this something that shows no taste or eyesight on my part, or is part of the risk of using stacked focus (which I have never done) that in certain instances it may be so hyper real as to be aesthetically disadvantageous? Again, please forgive me if this is at all offensive--I marvel at the technique and the images are very very clear. I also have struggled with depth of field on macro shots--as most have I suppose. I just wonder are there factors that determine when it is desirable to stack focus, and when it might not be?


Jan 01, 2014 at 09:32 PM
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


+1

In becoming hyper real and highly controlled it is very different look from the real world. The ultra even lighting and lack of strong tonal transitions contribute to this much flatter appearance. Because detail is very even for all objects in the extended focal plane you miss the usual cues of depth.



Jan 02, 2014 at 02:11 AM
itai195
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


On the one hand, unless ultimate IQ is your priority, it makes sense to stick to the camera you prefer using. Particularly if the IQ differences are so subtle. It will ultimately make you a more efficient, productive photographer and prone to fewer mistakes.

On the other hand, some of the usability difference may be down to the D800, and DSLRs in general, simply being a more familiar tool for you. Perhaps some of the quirks will get smoothed out as you get used to the new camera.

I'm glad to see that the A7 is amenable to the technique though. I've used focus stacking for landscapes, but never for close-ups or macro as it just seems to painstaking to get it right at that level.



Jan 02, 2014 at 02:30 AM
MichaelErlewin
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


First, I will definitely work to keep related posts to the same categorical thread. My apologies. And, yes, the a7r does work for focus stacking. It might be easier for me if it did not, but it does, but there still are issues.

Aside from that, there are many other thoughts to respond to, so I will just jump in. The factors that appeal to me about the a7r include the 36mp image quality, coupled with the great EVF, and the ability to magnify what you are shooting to see if it is in focus. The rest of the features of the a7r are nothing special to me, and the short battery life and spaghetti-menu approach sucks IMO.

And of course the D800E is more familiar, but this is what happens when a camera with new features appears, only in the past the newcomer was obviously "bigger and better." Here it is smaller and better in some respects, but worse in others and certainly not a slam/dunk kind of decision, thus a post like this.

This leaves the perennial issue of personal taste. I hope we can agree that each of our approaches to image style is individual, to our own particular taste. One style obviously does not please all, which is why variety, as they say, is the spice of life.

The images shown here are not meant to convey "atmospherics" or mood. That is something I work for "after' I decide if a particular camera or lens will be suitable for the work I do. I used to shoot wall charts for line definition, but decided that doing that was not that helpful to me, plus MTF charts abound and are better done by others, IMO. DxOMark seems to do a great job.

So what we have here are images to satisfy my own mind that the a7r will be workable IMO or should I send the camera back and wait for one that is more useable. And this is a question I have, since there is a lot about the a7r that is a pain for me, in particular the problem of a very light camera body supporting both an adapter and then hanging a huge lens like the Otus 55mm off of that. I have to prop up the Otus at the far end of a long Arca rail with a folded piece of Styrofoam, etc. That is not preferable. And then there is the more serious problem of the shutter-shake, where the bang of the shutter sends waves of shock at the same moment the sensor is recording the image. This is painful to behold.

Again, for the casual user, this problem perhaps does not register on their radar screen, but when we are stacking focus many layers deep, it can matter a lot, so for me this is a very serious problem when it comes to the a7r, one that may not be able to be solved.

As for the "plasticky" look of pure focus for my sample images, again, I don't usually stack from front to back like this. Here I am trying to compare a stacked photo to a photo taken at very high apertures. I am amazed, for instance, by the DOF of the new Zeiss Otus 55mm at even f/16. I know that diffraction is nature's law, like gravity, and we don't break nature's laws -- period. However, it does appear that highly correcting lenses (aberrations, etc.) does permit better images at narrowing apertures. This alone was a mind-bender for me, and I am still trying to verify this fact. It seems to be so, and makes some focus stacking unneeded, and THAT is a surprise. And here is the more subtle point:

Even if f/16 (or thereabouts) on APO lenses like the new Zeiss Otuss 55m works well, it still carries the (for me) unwanted side effect of destroying bokeh in the background and putting too much in focus in the shot. My history has been to use lenses that are very fast wide-open (and thus have a very narrow -- but sharp -- depth-of-field) to paint focus where I want it, allowing everything else to devolve into good bokeh. I include two examples my work at this link.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98006906@N05]

Check it out and you will not see plasticky focus, but rather judicial use of focus for effect. As I have written elsewhere, macro photography to me is impressionistic. I am not trying to mirror-reflect what I see in the outside world of nature on the sensor, but rather to reflect the impression of beauty nature makes on my mind to the sensor. There is a difference.

I also have some 20 or so free video tutorials on focus stacking and related subjects (and free e-books) here:

http://dharmagrooves.com/#&panel1-1]



Jan 02, 2014 at 04:19 AM
redisburning
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


so since it wasnt addressed in the other thread, though I now have an answer to my original question, what would happen if you got a tripod collar and mounted your setup close to the balance point rather than at one end?

I would think then, as long as you can avoid shutter vibration, you ought to be in good shape. and since you are using geared stepping that shouldnt represent too much of an inconvenience, right?



Jan 02, 2014 at 11:38 AM
waterden
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


Interested to read that the two big features of the a7r for you are the 36mp sensor and the EVF but not its small size. I suspect that, for many if us, size is the attraction but I can see why you desire bulk, or at least weight, for steadying. Like redisburning suggests I think you would find that mounting the adapter rather than the camera to the rail will help to dampen shake. Otherwise I fear you have to compromise since the D800 has an OVF and the a7, while having the EFCS, has a lesser sensor and is the same size as the R. There is always the a99, with the same (I believe) EVF but, again the smaller sensor. However it is a heavier body. Unfortunately a-mount is hard to adapt so this may not be a runner either. Guess you will have to hope for a firmware fix for the shutter because I don't get the feeling that Canon or Nikon are in any hurry to can OVFs. Which is a big mistake in my view - I think that EVFs are coming of age and are transformative.


Jan 02, 2014 at 12:00 PM
Michael Gordon
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


I wonder if a shot filled bean bag would tame this small beast for focus stacking? If the battery/grip tames the vibrations uspect the bean bag trick would be fine until they (Sony or 3rd party) provdie an anti-shock mode like on hte Oly mirrorless cams. Already have such a bean bag that I use on my OM bodies if unable to use the MLU/aperture prefire linked to the timer on the 4 because of intemittent breezes.

On the 5DII I always use the LCD with mag LV anyway for focus stacking and EVF makes less of a difference except for hand held single shots I would think.
I think some can beautifully focus stack handheld with flash, but haven't figured out how to do that to my satisfaction yet.



Jan 02, 2014 at 03:29 PM
Luvwine
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


MichaelErlewin wrote:
First, I will definitely work to keep related posts to the same categorical thread. My apologies. And, yes, the a7r does work for focus stacking. It might be easier for me if it did not, but it does, but there still are issues.

Aside from that, there are many other thoughts to respond to, so I will just jump in. The factors that appeal to me about the a7r include the 36mp image quality, coupled with the great EVF, and the ability to magnify what you are shooting to see if it is in focus. The rest of the features of
...Show more


Wow! Fabulous additional image and generous of you to share your craft with others! The idea of these flower images as "test" images makes perfect sense and explains my aesthetic reaction. The idea of not avoiding background blur, but rather "painting" it where you want it, speaks of thoughtful artistic vision and patient craft. Ell done!



Jan 02, 2014 at 06:39 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


Michael Gordon wrote:
I wonder if a shot filled bean bag would tame this small beast for focus stacking?


Shot-filled? Do you mean lead-shot?

In which case, unless you can arrange for a shot-filled beanbag to be lying about in all the places you might need them, simply carrying a DSLR instead would be more comfortable, and lighter.

The A7 and A7r are great cameras, in some ways, but when you hit their limitations, it is not clear that trying to work around them is the best course of action. Horses for courses.



Jan 02, 2014 at 07:15 PM
wiseguy010
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Taming of the Sony a7r for Focus Stacking


Michael, can you tell me what stacking software you use and why?

I want to set my first steps in focus-stacking, but don't have appropriate software for that at the moment.



Jan 02, 2014 at 07:20 PM





FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.