Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2      
3
       end
  

Archive 2013 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?

  
 
Jonas B
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


zhangyue wrote:
(...)
35fle is a great lens for both WO or stop down if leica's MTF can be trusted, which I feel it is based on my experience.


You are speaking about the 35fle in an enthusiastic way. In my opinion that is partly justified - as long we don't involve bokeh or "sharpness" over the field in the discussion.

Really, I have no experience from the current FLE version of the 35 Lux-M. I have tried (during one day, doing controlled comparisons to the CV35/1.2 on a Nex.5) one copy of the 35 ASPH non-FLE and then bought another copy. They both behaved the same and stopped down to f/5.6 they did like this:
http://photos.imageevent.com/jonas_b/fotoforum2012mixed/fmaltgear2012/35Lux-M_asph_nonFLE_MTF_5.6.jpg

(The above is the Leica official MTF for the 35mm Summilux-M ASPH non-FLE at f/5.6.)

You can see that the two ASPH versions perform very similar to each other. Here is, again, what I found at the link to diglloyd you gave us:
"More severe cases

As shown below, the deep dip/wave with the Leica 35/1.4 Summilux-M ASPH FLE is a prime example of a lens whose field curvature is strong enough to have a serious impact on across-the-frame sharpness of planar subjects such as a wall/building or a distant infinity scene: focusing slighty differently to take this into account can in some cases mitigate the loss of sharpness in the mid zones."


And again, I don't think that is great. I don't want to sometimes be able to mitigate the dip effect by thanks to some special focusing technique. I want the darn image to be sharp border to border at f/5.6 and then I want to be allowed to focus on the composition instead.

As the FLE version draws background out of focus details in a harsh way I've never been interested in the lens. The first ASPH version made beautiful, or very beautiful, images when it worked, which it doesn't really do for all sorts of images.

I guess we simply disagree.
Regards,
Jonas



Dec 29, 2013 at 03:18 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


Leica also measures their MTF, I am pretty sure, and I believe that they use the same Zeiss machines as Zeiss themselves do.


Dec 29, 2013 at 03:18 PM
Jonas B
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


carstenw wrote:
Leica also measures their MTF, I am pretty sure, and I believe that they use the same Zeiss machines as Zeiss themselves do.


Denoir, in October 2011, here.



Dec 29, 2013 at 03:21 PM
douglasf13
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


Jonas B wrote:
Denoir, in October 2011, here.



theSuede: link and link



Dec 29, 2013 at 03:33 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


Hehe, well, I guess I tend to believe theSuede on that...


Dec 29, 2013 at 03:37 PM
Jonas B
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


douglasf13 wrote:
theSuede: link and link


Wouldn't you know. Always check and then check again, don't trust anyone.
Thank you Douglas.



Dec 29, 2013 at 03:55 PM
ebookman
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


This is my rainy day test of the C Biogen 2.8/35 ZM.

I was of course very disappointed with the performance of this lens on the my A7r. I love the compactness of this lens.

I had decided to just take a pass on 35mm focal length primes and use my RX1 for shooting at this focal length. This afternoon I decided to see what Adobe flat field plugin would do with these terrible files. Here is the technique I used.

I set the aperture at F/11 and focused on infinity using focus magnification. I picked the mountain on the horizon for infinity as my Fotodiox adapter goes beyond infinity. This is the shot.

http://jendale.smugmug.com/Other/Lenses/i-DmGzhKH/0/X2/DSC00903-1-X2.jpg



Next I took the camera to my computer and put up a blank new document in Microsoft Word and held the camera up to the screen with the same setting I used outside and took what Abobe calls a "target image." This is it.

http://jendale.smugmug.com/Other/Lenses/i-dbcMKfq/0/X2/DSC00904-1-X2.jpg

I comverted the two images to DNG and applied the flat field correction referencing the target image. This is the result with the identical post processing template.

http://jendale.smugmug.com/Other/Lenses/i-R8fpZnR/0/X2/DSC00903_ff-1-X2.jpg

I am satisfied that this lens can rejoin the team.



Dec 29, 2013 at 05:56 PM
uhoh7
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


Well one thing the R is way more picky. I think the native is the only serious 35 for that, but I did see some good FLE shots.

But the CV 35/1.4 is usable, and like everything non-native, even more so

on the plain A7

The R was smearing my SLR 35s even at f/8 with infinity landscapes! That's when I could not take it anymore



Dec 30, 2013 at 12:55 AM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


zhangyue wrote:
That is exact reason I had problem with that illustration. I am really puzzled at the time to see that FC effect. That can't be the performance you expect from a lens with 40lp/mm above 60% cross frame.

Until later I find the MTF difference between the two.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3805/11628977865_6357e6938d_b.jpg

Sorry for a crappy snap shot, that is the only place I can find MTF of ASPH pre-FLE.

the 35fle is not 90AA kind of MTF, but it should be great for landscape use IMHO. I doubt any other 35mm lens will do much better than this.


Here is a link to the M-Summilux 35 non-FLE data sheet:

http://www.summilux.net/m_system/images/Summilux35Asph.pdf

If you compare it to the data sheet from the FLE that is available at the Leica web site, you will see that they are remarkably similar. This probably should not be that surprising. If you compare the lens diagrams they are very similar. Obviously the FLE has elements that float, but otherwise they look like they have the same elements, and a floating element is going to make the most difference close up and the least difference at infinity. So from the MTF and based on the designs I would expect these lenses to have very similar landscape performance and with a bit of a zone B dip. Where I would expect differences in performance would be closer focus situations and the FLE should be sharper and not have focus shift, but the decrease in spherical aberrations that the floating element will provide will also mean that bokeh behind the focus point will be less soft (i.e., a little harsh).

My take is that if I was shooting on a range finder camera where dealing with the focus shift would be a royal pain, I would prefer the FLE. You would get no focus shift and some extra sharpness at the expense of the bokeh. I would live with that trade off. On the Sony A7(r), however, I would rather have the non-FLE. Focus shift should be pretty easy to deal with on these cameras and I would take a hit in sharpness for better bokeh. I wouldn't use it for landscapes, however. I would keep it for closer in shooting.



Dec 30, 2013 at 01:23 AM
zhangyue
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


Jonas B wrote:



You are speaking about the 35fle in an enthusiastic way. In my opinion that is partly justified - as long we don't involve bokeh or "sharpness" over the field in the discussion.

Really, I have no experience from the current FLE version of the 35 Lux-M. I have tried (during one day, doing controlled comparisons to the CV35/1.2 on a Nex.5) one copy of the 35 ASPH non-FLE and then bought another copy. They both behaved the same and stopped down to f/5.6 they did like this:
http://photos.imageevent.com/jonas_b/fotoforum2012mixed/fmaltgear2012/35Lux-M_asph_nonFLE_MTF_5.6.jpg

(The above is the Leica official MTF for the 35mm Summilux-M ASPH non-FLE at
...Show more

I didn't give you the Llyod's link. You must quote me wrong.

But I agree with you about both Pre-FLE and FLE have similar performance at f5.6 with a notch better with FLE. It is actually a good news for me if I got 35lux, pre-FLE will be the one I pick. (before I had concern about its strong FC)

I feel the MTF picture I took from Leica pocket book might be from real measurement for pre-FLE, since there is no f4 data in official data sheet. the curve itself also looks from photodo.

I revisit Denoir's post: the illustrated shot took marked at f4.8, it could be f2.8 or f4 based on my experience with Leica M. So, this make it more reasonable to believe that FC is the problem for that pic at that aperture. From any angle to view, it is a good illustration and well educated post.

But given f5.6 MTF from 35lux FLE and picture Carsten R show along with a bunch I can find from internet, I stand by my conclusion 35lux will be a good landscape lens.

My post has been focused on this 35lux, but reality is the FE35 is a great performer at 1/6 of price. better than any other 35mm lens I have used. with A7R, my copy show impressive cross frame sharpness with only 'extreme' corner lag.

The new sony Zeiss really define a new benchmark for landscape use. aperture only control DOF, but not performance.






Dec 30, 2013 at 01:24 AM
Toothwalker
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


zhangyue wrote:
That is exact reason I had problem with that illustration. I am really puzzled at the time to see that FC effect. That can't be the performance you expect from a lens with 40lp/mm above 60% cross frame.

the 35fle is not 90AA kind of MTF, but it should be great for landscape use IMHO. I doubt any other 35mm lens will do much better than this.


Maybe denoir showed the wrong MTF chart, I wouldn't know. The current version seems a notch better than the previous one, and the sharpness dip is less pronounced. But the field curvature is there in the FLE, and will be noticed if the resolution of the sensor is high enough. I would not reject it as a landscape lens though. Few wideangle lenses are critically sharp across the entire frame. Moreover, who says that sharpness across the frame at 100% magnification is a hard requirement for landscapes?




Dec 30, 2013 at 09:49 AM
zhangyue
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


Steve Spencer wrote:
Here is a link to the M-Summilux 35 non-FLE data sheet:

http://www.summilux.net/m_system/images/Summilux35Asph.pdf

If you compare it to the data sheet from the FLE that is available at the Leica web site, you will see that they are remarkably similar. This probably should not be that surprising. If you compare the lens diagrams they are very similar. Obviously the FLE has elements that float, but otherwise they look like they have the same elements, and a floating element is going to make the most difference close up and the least difference at infinity. So from the MTF and based on the designs
...Show more


Just read your post. I agree with you the difference between FLE and pre-FLE.
For both rangefinder and Sony, I will pick pre-FLE after this discuss. before my worry goes to pref-FLE having FC problem at stop down use because Luka's post. It looks like the concern is not really based on similar MTF. As I said, in luka's illustration, he might use f2.8 or so for that shot. So I assume if I shoot f8 or f11, It should be OK.

The lens soft rendering is always preferred. For 35lux, I will use it at WO 80%. for stop down, I almost always shoot close to infinity. DOF most likely will cover focus shift. Even if not, I will do a test to know the amount of compensation needed at infinity. (I do that all the time with all my rangefinder lens a pain, but pretty easy to deal.)



Dec 30, 2013 at 06:36 PM
Jonas B
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


zhangyue, you are right: the quote "More severe cases

As shown below, the deep dip/wave with the Leica 35/1.4 Summilux-M ASPH FLE is a prime example of a lens whose field curvature is strong enough to have a serious impact on across-the-frame sharpness of planar subjects such as a wall/building or a distant infinity scene: focusing slighty differently to take this into account can in some cases mitigate the loss of sharpness in the mid zones."

...is from diglloyd as mentioned but is was "Makten" who gave us the link, not you. Sorry for that. (so OK, I can neither trust my sources, nor myself any longer...)

Somewhere above I said something about the 35 Lux-M ASPH pre-FLE making the most beautiful images when it works. That is my experience from some in-depth comparisons on a Nex camera with the SMC-P FA31/1.8, the CV35/1.2II and the ZM Biogon 35/2 involved. You'll have to way down to make the DOF compensate the focus shift though. Electronic viewfinders are a bless!




Dec 31, 2013 at 05:46 AM
Makten
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


ebookman wrote:
Next I took the camera to my computer and put up a blank new document in Microsoft Word and held the camera up to the screen with the same setting I used outside and took what Abobe calls a "target image."


That's not a very good idea actually, because your screen will not give the same luminance at an angle as it does straight on. Some screens also alter the colors with the viewing angle. You can see that your example image is overcorrected because of this.



Jan 01, 2014 at 12:41 PM
Jabberwockt
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


It is a bit hard to find, but the MTF for the pre-FLE can be found here:
http://www.summilux.net/m_system/images/Summilux35Asph.pdf
While the mtf for the FLE is as follows:
http://www.summilux.net/m_system/images/Summilux35Asph-2010.pdf

It is a bit more fair to compare the MTF at the same Fstops. It is fairly close. The difference is that the pre-FLE is suppose to have slightly less harsh bokeh while the FLE doesn't have any focus shift (more important on the M bodies than the a camera with EVF/Peaking IMHO). Either would be more than satisfactory for me IF they worked to their full potential on the A7/A7r.



Jan 01, 2014 at 03:28 PM
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · 35mm RF lenses on A7r?


"can in some cases mitigate the loss of sharpness in the mid zones."

I sincerely doubt that, looking at the f5.6 MTF, though you may do a little better at f8 (where you lose the high def 5/10 lpmm lines). The sag line at f5.6 for 'detail' (40 lpmm) drops from 83% to 55% approx between IH 7mm to IH of 14mm - you will see it in output. These lenses appear not to be suitable for 'traditional' landscape work i.e. corner to corner excellence, especially on a high Mp sensor, despite whatever other attributes they may have in spades.

Here is Tim Ashley's comparison of the FLE and RX1 Sonnar - it's not pretty, but it does indicate the gulf opening between Zeiss latest 'allround' usage lenses and more boutique special purpose lenses:

http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/blog/2013/4/leica-m-240-with-35mm-f1-4-fle---some-observations

'The Leica file is about equally sharp at the POF but from there towards the peripheries it wanders in and out of sharpness. No wonder this lens has a 'roller coaster' MTF.'

He does not mention aperture values, from my reading. By looking at the MTF you can actually track the FLE's loss of performance...the very corners pick up as the sag line stages a recovery in the roller coaster journey to 75% while the tan line languishes at 50% (both 40 lpmm). You need definition in both directions..




Jan 01, 2014 at 09:51 PM
1       2      
3
       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2      
3
       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.