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Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?
  
 
ratsnest74
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


thanks for all the opinions, I shoot Canon of course. It all started on FB when i was commenting on a fellow Canon shooters newly acquired 5D3 and a Nikon shooter linked that and said notice how Canon scores so much lower. I had to get some feedback. Ive always been happy with Nikon glass, from EF to EF-s to L


Dec 20, 2013 at 06:20 PM
trenchmonkey
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


Ive always been happy with Nikon glass, from EF to EF-s to L
might wanna change the N word to Canon
Entertaining thread, Brad


Edited on Dec 20, 2013 at 06:27 PM · View previous versions



Dec 20, 2013 at 06:26 PM
AJSJones
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


The DxO scores remind me of painstakingly comparing different parameters of lenses but using a different film for each lens - thus rendering the comparison just a little appley orangey. And then they "normalize". They have enough resources to be able to set up a "reference" sensor to test lenses and a reference "image" to test sensors. Then we'd have some useful information


Dec 20, 2013 at 06:26 PM
Eric Gottesman
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


Even on the same camera I find it suspect that the 50 1.8II scores better than the Carl Zeiss Planar T 50mm f/1.4 ZE. No first hand comparison, but really?

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Best-lenses-for-your-Canon-EOS-6D/Moderate-telephoto-and-standard-models

Also the Tamron 70-200mm 2.8 tests better than the Canon 70-20mm 2.8 II.

I'm really surprised at their lens results when compared on the same camera body.



Dec 20, 2013 at 06:33 PM
ggreene
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


I love the B+H, Adorama, and Amazon, user reviews. On the whole they are remarkably accurate and a lot of people put effort into them.


Dec 20, 2013 at 07:13 PM
retrofocus
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


ggreene wrote:
I love the B+H, Adorama, and Amazon, user reviews. On the whole they are remarkably accurate and a lot of people put effort into them.


True - also the FM Reviews are very good. Mostly you can quickly screen several pages and keep an eye on the con field what people say (since you mostly already know the positives anyway). Another excellent source is photozone.



Dec 20, 2013 at 07:42 PM
sb in ak
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


I rather like Roger Cicala's occasional lens comments on his blog (Lens Rentals, no affiliation). Since he runs a rental business, he has the ability to test multiple copies of the same lens.


Dec 20, 2013 at 07:56 PM
runamuck
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


cordellwillis wrote:
You're actually paying attention to someone on the "other" side? Not a good idea. Canon camera gear is used by many for a reason. Nikon camera gear is used by many for a reason too.


Most Canon users I know say they bought Canon because a friend used Canon. They also stuck with newer Canon because they already had Canon lenses.

I shoot Nikon because when I was at wallyworld (3AM) I saw a Canon Rebel and Nikon N60. The Rebel felt like cheap plastic and knd of flimsy. I bought the Nikon because it felt more "solid." By the time I moved to an N80 I had 3 lenses, so another Nikon body made more sense than a Canon body.

The main reason I bought an SLR was my little Freedom Zoom 140 took a second trip down the stairs and didn't survive the trip. I thought an SLR would be a bit more substantial. Real sophistication on my part for sure. Had I known then what I know now I would probably have picked the N60 over the Rebel for the same reason.

There are people who change systems like they change socks. Every brand new body has them changing. Every latest doodad makes them change. The differences between the two systems are actually pretty much nonexistent. Either system will do very nicely. Both companies do their best to figure out what will sell best and deliver a very good product.




Dec 20, 2013 at 09:01 PM
asiafish
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


The only temptation I have to change is the new Nikon Df, which really appeals to me for its low-light capabilities and the way it looks and feels.

Of course I won't switch as it doesn't do anything enough better than my 6D to justify the cost of selling and replacing all of my glass.



Dec 20, 2013 at 09:14 PM
johnctharp
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


Well, there is that super smooth 58/1.4G...

But if I wanted a smaller, high-performance camera, it'd be an X-E2 .



Dec 20, 2013 at 09:18 PM
 

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Larate
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


ratsnest74 wrote:
thanks for all the opinions, I shoot Canon of course. It all started on FB when i was commenting on a fellow Canon shooters newly acquired 5D3 and a Nikon shooter linked that and said notice how Canon scores so much lower. I had to get some feedback. Ive always been happy with Nikon glass, from EF to EF-s to L


I never compare lenses mounted on different brand bodies (even for the same lense). Too many variables that spoil the tests. That's the same for different sensor sizes.

Following is a quick description of my lense purchase workflow.

So, I look for lens-tests made on the same body (even if it's not a body I have) and I'm using a test for a lense I already have and/or know well as a reference for further comparisons.
I don't stop to the résumé of the tests (most of the time I don't read them). I skip the final notes because I think there are biased by tester variables, not mines. For example, CA are more important for me than vignetting. And so is the sharpness homogeneity across the frame.
So I gather the test data for vignetting, ca, sharpness, coma and so on and I interpret and compare them myself.
I don't stop on a single source of tests : photozone, slrgear, lenstip, dxo and so on. Often they end with scratch heading, which most of the time, means the IQ for the lenses are not so different.

Next, I look for a field test or, if possible, a self test. In order to have an idea about the ergonomics (handling, weight,...) of the lenses that interest me. Then I take account of the prices and how to budget them.
Finally I buy one (rarely several) of the lenses I hold so far. Sometimes the final choice is risky, but so is Life, isn't it ?!
After that, I will spend from 3 to 6 months to learn the new lens before being able to say I was right or wrong to buy it. Et voilà !



Dec 21, 2013 at 03:02 AM
digitalbug30d
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


ratsnest74 wrote:
ok, well who is the better source for such ratings? I hear so many people on this Canon forum saying Canon has the better lenses and I believed this until a Nikon shooter pointed this site out to me.

How about letting the Picture speak for itself...never understood charts and graphs to tell me ,How sharp the picture should be,without a picture"



Dec 21, 2013 at 03:12 AM
digitalbug30d
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


retrofocus wrote:
...because several of the tested lenses with a high score in sharpness were tested on a D800 or D800E camera which simply has the best sensor resolution-wise. Canon's camera sensors cannot compete with this sensor.

So what,the idea is the picture and most people buy their cameras for the OVERALL results not pick and choose,sure the Nikon D800 has the highest rez but Canon still overall makes the best glass....



Dec 21, 2013 at 03:14 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?



Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


I didn't know that Canon sold lenses.



Dec 21, 2013 at 03:14 AM
digitalbug30d
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


sb in ak wrote:
I rather like Roger Cicala's occasional lens comments on his blog (Lens Rentals, no affiliation). Since he runs a rental business, he has the ability to test multiple copies of the same lens.

Yes "REAL WORLD" testing. Better than charts and graphs.



Dec 21, 2013 at 03:16 AM
Photon
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


digitalbug30d wrote:
Yes "REAL WORLD" testing. Better than charts and graphs.

Roger has actually done quite a lot of very careful testing of multiple copies of, shall we say, "lenses of interest". He also writes extensively about which differences will be noticeable under what circumstances, how much copy variation exists, and many other interesting subjects. He's also a great guy (and no, I have no affiliation either)!



Dec 21, 2013 at 05:02 AM
Breitling65
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


ratsnest74 wrote:
http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Ratings/Optical-Metric-Scores

First page (top 28 lenses):

10 Nikon Lenses. 1 Canon. Even Tamron and Sigma each have 2 in the top 28...



This is question to Dxo After using their software I don't trust to anything they do.



Dec 21, 2013 at 12:11 PM
fabulas
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


Just change the camera from d800 to d600 on DxO and it should be a more even comparison to the 5DmkIII.


Dec 21, 2013 at 05:58 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


It has been said before but I will repeat it:

1) Dxomark is a good site that I look to often but you have to know what their numbers mean. The aggregate score is useless and has an arbitrary weighting as applied by Dxomark. The sharpness score is the total equivalent resolution achieved. Thus when a d800 achieves 28, it is failing to make 36mpx (its mpx) that means either that the d800 is failing in achieving its maximum of 36 or the lens is being outresolved by the mpx. When you look at the sharpness of the best canon 5diii you will find that they often hit 22mpx which indicates either the camera was perfect in achieving all that it could and likely the lens can deliver more and was limited by the camera. The distortion and CA numbers are helpful becuase they were done in a similar manner for all lens however, its not clear how they weighted the corners vs the centre. I like to use photozone.de who actually publish the edges seperately from the centre and the CA and vignetting at different fstops as more useful.

2) Often technique makes more resolution not useful. Eg. if you are shooting a 600mm lens with great iq at 1/500, the resolution will not show up. You can only achieve the specified resolution with no wind, tripod bolted down. etc.

3) The resolution of the bodies will rise and fall. Currently the d800 and 14-24 delivers the best landscape (ignoring the fact that they do not have a good UWA ts which means they are not useful to me) but you don't want to be flipping in and out of bodies when you buy $3000 lens. Just wait a year and Canon will pass them and then Nikon will pass them and then Sony will pass them and then Canon will pass them but you will not get an average person to tell the difference. So the right solution is stick with a market leader (nikon or canon) and buy the best in each system and don't look over the fence.

4) Currently my view is that Canon has best tilt shift lens. Nikon does not even have a 17ts. And I think the 5diii is the best all round camera. And Canon has the best (newest design) long lens [600v2, 500v2, 200-400]. The d800 is not great for wildlife. So so might say Canon is best (Ts17, TS24, 600v2, 500v2, 200-400) and some might say Nikon is the best (d800 with 14-24) and some might say sony is best with zeiss lens and a7r. So which is best depends on what you are shooting. For me Canon is best for wildlife. And best for me for landscape (TS17).



Dec 21, 2013 at 07:52 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Why Do Canon Lenses Score so Low?


Regarding the issue of lenses out-resolving sensors (or vice versa) it is important to think this through a bit. There are only three possibilities that I can imagine:

1. Lens and sensor resolution are equal - This is essentially impossible for a bunch of reasons. Not all lenses have the same resolution, no lens has the same resolution across the entire frame, and aperture and other factors create more variables. I suppose the closest you might imagine coming to this ideal would be the very best portion of the frame on your very best lens at the optimum aperture might equal the purported sensor resolution. But in the real world, equal resolution is not reality.

2. The lens out-resolves the sensor - Even considering the factors above, it is possible to imagine a situation in which the lens out-resolves the sensor. (This is the scenario most people are referring to when they complain that the sensor cannot resolve the detail provided by the lens - we've seen that issue raised in this thread.) It certainly would not be a bad thing for the lens resolution to exceed that of a sensor, and given the way that lens resolution is measured, it could be argued that this is perhaps the best option. And you might well keep a lens long enough to use it on a series of bodies, so a sensor that is out-resolved by the lens today could be replaced by a higher resolution sensor in the future.

3. The sensor out-resolves the lens - This also is not necessarily a bad thing. (Well, maybe it is if your lens is so awful that any sensor out-resolves it!) There are a number of potential advantages from sensors that out-resolve lenses, and even from those that might do so by a very large amount. For example, I'd be happy to accurately render the very small gradients that occur at the edges of objects in the image. While the system may not be able to resolve more subject detail, it could resolve more accurately the image projected on the sensor. There is the possibility of smoother rendering of gradients. It is also possible that a much higher resolution sensor could reduce or eliminate the need for an anti-aliasing filter.

So, I think it might just be time to stop throwing out the "sensor can't resolve the lens resolution" notion every time this subject comes up. First, it seems predicated on the impossible ideal where sensor and lens resolution will be equal. Second, there are potential advantages in increasing both lens and sensor resolution in ways that are not linked to perfectly equal resolving power.

And, yes, I do realize that much of this is moot for all but those who are working very carefully and making very, very large prints. Current lenses and sensors from many manufacturers provide enough and more than enough resolving power for the ways that the majority of photographer are using them.

Take care,

Dan

Scott Stoness wrote:
It has been said before but I will repeat it:

1) Dxomark is a good site that I look to often but you have to know what their numbers mean. The aggregate score is useless and has an arbitrary weighting as applied by Dxomark. The sharpness score is the total equivalent resolution achieved. Thus when a d800 achieves 28, it is failing to make 36mpx (its mpx) that means either that the d800 is failing in achieving its maximum of 36 or the lens is being outresolved by the mpx. When you look at the sharpness of the best canon
...Show more

Edited on Dec 22, 2013 at 03:27 AM · View previous versions



Dec 21, 2013 at 08:10 PM
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