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Archive 2013 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?

  
 
mawz
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


nandadevieast wrote:
I completely dis-agree that the similar clarity can be had with any camera. Its so obvious...

Take a look at those trees at infinity. At 100 percent, a bayer file will render the leaves mushy. No definition. Now apply as much whatever rafius sharpening to make them look even worse.

Now open a Merrill file.


That's the AA filter, not the Bayer sensor (assuming a sensor of equivalent linear resolution, so ~24MP bayer vs ~15MP Foveon). If you have mush, it's the lens or the AA filter, not the sensor. Compare the M9, which delivers the same sort of clarity as the Merrills.


DR is also very good. Opposite of how Sony does it. You cant pull the shadows but you can comfortably overexpose upto 1.5/2 stops depending on the scene, and pull the highlights back.


Umm, no. With the Sony sensor I have just as much highlight room, plus the same amount in the shadows that the Foveon lacks, which is a solid 2-3 stops more total DR than the Foveon.


How much DR you need for printing?


Enough to show all the detail in the scene.


The camera isnt slow either...you can keep clicking while it will keep writing Just forget about chimping.


That's because the camera is slow, not a proof it isn't. With anything modern I can keep clicking, keep chimping and shoot at a reasonable fps. Only the Foveon's have that sort of limitation these days.


There is triple color information in these files than a bayer file. Thats the reason they make such great BW files. When we convert a Bayer file to monochrome, it can't be pushed around too much without losing its integrity. Open a Merrill file and convert it to BW using chanel mixer and see for yourself what can be done with it. There is enough information in all r, g, b chanels and you can make a very smooth looking black and white picture.

These are special cameras. Really. For BW work, they are the best.


Umm, no. There isn't triple the colour information. That's simply not possible given how Bayer works. There is 4 times the red & blue information and double the green information of a bayer sensor of equivalent pixel count. For a bayer of equivalent resolution (ie 50% more pixels or 1/2 the sensor sites) there is 1.33x the green information and 2.66x the red & blue. Of course here you run into selectivity issues, because the bayer sensor has far less cross-talk between channels and thus actually delivers a lot higher quality colour data despite the nominal losses from interpolating the colour data.







Dec 18, 2013 at 07:04 PM
millsart
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


mawz wrote:
That's the AA filter, not the Bayer sensor (assuming a sensor of equivalent linear resolution, so ~24MP bayer vs ~15MP Foveon). If you have mush, it's the lens or the AA filter, not the sensor. Compare the M9, which delivers the same sort of clarity as the Merrills.




Having owned a M9, as well as other AA-less camera's such as the Ricoh GR, various X-trans Fuji's and also a D800e, I have to disagree

While they can deliver excellent per pixel sharpness for nearer subjects, at a distance things such as foliage do go a bit mushy. My D800e for example, even with a great lens can't resolve things like tree limbs, phone poles and such on the horizon the way the Merrill can



Dec 18, 2013 at 10:09 PM
millsart
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


snapsy wrote:
If they have identical nominal pixel counts but how about a higher MP bayer vs lower MP foveon?




That is rather the point of all this isn't it ? You can have a 16 meg APS-C $700 lens/camera that equals or comes darn close to 24+ meg cameras.

Even if we are rather conservative and compare with something like a D600, instead of a A7r or D800, the overall cost and size still is about 3 times more expensive/heavier than a Merrill

Everyone seems to always ignore how dirt cheap the Merrill's when comparing them to other cameras, and for me anyways, that is a big part of the attraction, besides obviously the size/weight savings

If money is no object, nor is size/weight, and you only care about the best possible image quality, then by all means go go a D800e, or A7r and some Zeiss or Leica glass and spend $5000, its overall a much better camera system.

But if landscape photography is merely a hobby, and you don't want to sink a lot of money into it, and you don't want to haul around a heavy backpack full of gear, yet you'd still like to be able to produce some very nice prints, I think a Merrill is tough to beat as far as bang for the buck goes.

If it was a $3000 camera, then heck no, I sure wouldn't own one no matter how much I do like the IQ it produces, I just demand for more from something costing that much. RX1 for example is much better value as I can use it for so much more than just landscape shooting

$700 or less though ? I think its a no-brainer, assuming you don't try to use it outside its limitations and your style of photography suits a slower pace, tripod, not machine gunning etc



Dec 18, 2013 at 10:39 PM
Chrissearle
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


Ha! It is almost as though there were two different sorts of Merrill out there, one that is super slow with terrible DR, etc and the other which is just fine. I do observe that the detractors are mostly the 'look at the colour chart' types while the enthusiasts are the people who actually go out and take photographs. I find the DR just fine for my photography, it has never stopped me being able to take photographs that I personally like a lot and yes, the highlight recovery possible in SPP constantly surprises me. I have never once found the camera's speed of operation has hindered me from getting the shot I want, indeed these cameras have enabled me to take some of my all time favourite images and the satisfaction I get from using them is enormous.


Dec 18, 2013 at 11:00 PM
sflxn
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


The topic of whether Foveon produces anything special is best left to the photographs. In most threads I see about Foveon, there is a lot of talk and description of magical this and that but few images. I have a curiosity about these camera but unwilling to try it till they improve the handling and workflow. If owners really believe in Foveon, it's just best to put the images out there for others to judge. I base my impressions of cameras and lenses more on the general gut feel I get when browsing images than from tech specs. Foveon owners, stop yapping, and start posting. Prove there is something special. I cannot accept words from owners or Sigma's marketing as proof. Also, ENOUGH! Enough about how much per pixel sharpness there is in this one corner of the photograph. You guys are making yourself look stupid with the whole 'per pixel sharpness' rants. The images I see on 500px are nice, but the ones on Flickr and DPreview forum are as good as P&S images.


Dec 18, 2013 at 11:11 PM
millsart
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


sflxn wrote:
The topic of whether Foveon produces anything special is best left to the photographs. In most threads I see about Foveon, there is a lot of talk and description of magical this and that but few images. I have a curiosity about these camera but unwilling to try it till they improve the handling and workflow. If owners really believe in Foveon, it's just best to put the images out there for others to judge. I base my impressions of cameras and lenses more on the general gut feel I get when browsing images than from tech specs. Foveon owners,
...Show more


Well... generally speaking, asking nicely for full resolution uploads probably would probably go over better than insulting Merrill owners about how stupid we look or how images are no better than P&S....

Your little rant about how you hate the rants of others, while certainly par for the course for an internet photo forum, really adds nothing of tangible benefit.

finally, have you not spent any time on this forum ? Photographers using lots of different systems spent A LOT of time talking about corner performance and overall sharpness. That is hardly unique for Sigma

I mean really now, read any Sony A7(r) RF glass threads ? About 99% of the talk is about corner performance for a given lens with a given adapter

Pixel peeping is as much a hobby as star gazing or bird watching for some people.



Dec 19, 2013 at 12:38 AM
sflxn
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


millsart wrote:
Well... generally speaking, asking nicely for full resolution uploads probably would probably go over better than insulting Merrill owners about how stupid we look or how images are no better than P&S....

Your little rant about how you hate the rants of others, while certainly par for the course for an internet photo forum, really adds nothing of tangible benefit.

finally, have you not spent any time on this forum ? Photographers using lots of different systems spent A LOT of time talking about corner performance and overall sharpness. That is hardly unique for Sigma

I mean really now, read any Sony A7(r)
...Show more

My call for photos was not meant as an insult. I generally base my impressions of lenses and cameras by browsing images at places like FM, Flickr, and 500px. I didn't have to read about how much better (in general) certain Zeiss lenses are, because I can see it with my own eyes. The same goes for any gear. I don't see the same from Foveon. There is a lot of waxing on about how sharp this pixel and that pixel is. My comments about the Foveon images on Flickr and DPreview forum... well, let's just say I am not a big fan of their images. I think they spend so much time staring at alias free images that they forget to go take some images. We all know what OCD is. It's like they're OCD'ing over per-pixel sharpness.

Discussion of corner sharpness is very different from the Foveon talk. Corner sharpness is a general topic. Sharpness of lens, contrast, bokeh, etc. Foveon talk is very unique. They spend so much time trying to convince the world that there is something special. Hey, I'm sure the world would love to see this special magic. Show us, don't tell us. I say this because I think there might be something in the color palette that Foveon outputs, but there's hardly any pudding for me to find the proof. I am more interested in seeing the proof of the color difference and could really care less about the per pixel sharpness. The world has lived with bayer for a long time and will continue to do so. A little extra per pixel sharpness is of no consequence to me.



Dec 19, 2013 at 01:18 AM
alundeb
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


nandadevieast wrote:
Alundeb, pls see that review...other pages as well...it talks about color resolution somewhere...


I did see that review, it was where I found what I referred.



Dec 19, 2013 at 01:51 AM
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