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Archive 2013 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?

  
 
nandadevieast
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


What's not to like?

Incredible detail. Devine per pixel sharpness. Clarity. Pop. Resolution. Simple and intuitive (menu) layout. Great build, Fast to click (slow to chimp). Complex but amazing software in what you can do with it. Completely silent leaf shutter (not that landscapers need one). Absolutely best optics.

Stunning prints, you have to see them to believe it. When it comes to Prints...its an almost impossible gear to match.

And most of all, absolutely the best monochrome camera.

I notice the flurry of activity here everytime an ambitious launch takes place...haven't noticed all that love for Merrills. Especially on a landscape forum. Landscapers are a patient lot who go after the image quality alone and typically find a workaround for any other quirk that comes with the gear.

Why so?

Nde





Edited on Dec 15, 2013 at 10:34 PM · View previous versions



Dec 15, 2013 at 11:22 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


nandadevieast wrote:
......haven't noticed all that love for Merrills. Especially on a landscape forum....

Why so?

Nde


Well,

(i) this is not a "landscape forum", and

(ii) there are lots of very fine threads here about the Merrills - you started some of them.



Dec 15, 2013 at 11:33 AM
edwinIII
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


I can see several reasons (I have both the DP1M and DP2M). I shoot mostly landscape and while sometimes I am blown away with the results other times I am left frustrated. Landscapers will probably have issues with the color, challenging late evening, early morning light and lack of ultra-wide angle lens. I initially was so impressed with the results (I do mostly BW) I thought I could go solely to the DPM's and sell my other gear. But, I found myself just carrying more gear for situations I knew the DPM's would faulter, which ended up being a lot. Don't get me wrong, when it gets it right it is awesome.

Edwin



Dec 15, 2013 at 11:39 AM
nandadevieast
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


(ii):
Sorry about that.
I am not a regular here, though i have been following the forum with a vengeance for a month or so because of twin Sony's. I disappear and take a really long break so i wouldn't know.

Yeah, you are right...but i was thinking compared to many other cameras maybe...I see folks talking about lots of other gear. Merrills are not 10% that popular.

I am just back from a trip and again, like every other time, the best shots have come from my DP Merrill.



Dec 15, 2013 at 11:45 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


Probably has a lot to do with the DP Merrills lack of versatility. Even for landscape work, these cameras really thrive on bright, natural light. For those who like to shoot into the light (sun or bright light source in frame), the filter pack over the sensor can create some odd flare issues occasionally which you can see here:
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/04/22/sigma-dp-merrill-comparison-review-by-ben-evans/

All of the DP's have exhibited some form of sensor/ flare artifact. For some it's an issue, for others not so much.

Other aspects of the cameras may not appeal to everyone as well - such as the lack of an available EVF.

Within it's somewhat narrow niche within a niche, they are great image tools, particularly given the price. I think it's simply the nature of a fairly limited use camera that it's not going to get as much attention as a more versatile camera.



Dec 15, 2013 at 11:53 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


I shoot most of my landscapes with a 70-200mm. If I need a Merrill's "look" I simply do what Sigma's raw processor appears to do - add large-radius USM


Dec 15, 2013 at 11:54 AM
nandadevieast
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


The biggest culprit is the green-magenta signature but given good exposure you will not see it. I get it if i am under exposed on a low contrast scene. Rest all is rare, manageable and all cameras have some or the other quirk.

Tariq, i have shot into the sun and actually one of the most amazing shot i have had with Merrills is into the sun.

I can take fuzzy detail and lack of per pixel clarity as a limitation of other cameras, but that doesnt make them bad cameras.

Snapsy, its not clever sharpening...i cant achieve that pixel level sharpness by just applying wide radius sharpening to a D600 file. It wont be as clear at 100%. At least i can't do it. My dslr files look as sharp st 20% when i fit them to monitor but not at pixel level.





Dec 15, 2013 at 12:21 PM
edwinIII
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


nandadevieast wrote:
I would take fuzzy detail and lack of per pixel clarity as a limitation of other cameras. Those files feel fuzzy next to a Merrill file.


I know what you mean. After viewing my 5DII at 100% and then viewing my DPM at 100% it is hard to go back to the 5D. But, photographing a storm at sunset becomes a real challenge when I have to leave iso100, which I do often. I have always wanted a small, high quality three lens kit for backpacking and was excited with the possibility of the DPM trio. It is just not versatile enough and just ended complicating my gear situation. I think I will give the A7r a try. It may give a similar per pixel quality when down sampled to 15MP.

Edwin



Dec 15, 2013 at 12:37 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


nandadevieast wrote:
Snapsy, its not clever sharpening...i cant achieve that pixel level sharpness by just applying wide radius sharpening to a D600 file. It wont be as clear at 100%. At least i can't do it. My dslr files look as sharp st 20% when i fit them to monitor but not at pixel level.

I'd probably have to shoot the two side-by-side and do my own comparison to give the Merrill a fair shake. But here is a full-size image from a lowly 5D to give you an idea of what's possible with certain content and sharpening workflow. This is from over a mile away with a 70-200:

5D 12MP Landscape



Dec 15, 2013 at 01:42 PM
mawz
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


Why not?

No resolution advantage over 24MP APS-C bayer, especially no AA bodies like the D7100 or D5300. Lousy DR, bad metamarism, processing issues, mediocre body design with limited features, restricted to base ISO, badly overpriced (well, at least the SD1 Merrill, the DP's are more reasonably priced). Limited lens options.

Really the lenses are the only solid advantage to the Merril's right now and they're available in E mount anyways. I can carry 2 Merrills, or I can carry a NEX-7 with the Sigma 19 & 30, get the same optics, a slight decrease in resolution (due to the AA filter), a major increase in DR and colour accuracy and I can use the camera at mid/high ISO and get usable results. Or I can shoot a D7100 and get superior IQ in all regards, weather sealing, a wide selection of lenses, real battery life.

Also they aren't close to being the best monochrome camera (frankly, that's the M monochrome), they're pretty good for conversions but all the recent no-AA cameras do very well at monochrome.

The Merrills remain 1 hit wonders. They do good resolution in good light at 28mm-e or 45mm-e (and whatever the DP3 has). But their resolution advantage is gone, the same resolution is available now in consumer cameras (D5300), the sensor sucks in every non-resolution category that can be objectively tested. I'm frankly surprised that the Merrills are as popular as they are for Landscape given the sensor limitations.



Dec 15, 2013 at 06:19 PM
deadwolfbones
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


Too much of a PITA to work with.


Dec 15, 2013 at 09:29 PM
contas
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


1- No decent WA ( less than 50mm) lens could adapt to Sigma DSLR without green/magenta edges.
2- The Sigma microlens design for digital sensor could be considered "faulty", that worsen the above vignetting.
So Sigma DSLR for landscapes must have NO microlens ( like in SD9) OR Sigma must improve it to match wherether APS-C or FF. This phenomenon can also be watched on the newest SONY cameras alpha7/R (that SONY claims improved with shifted microlens).



Dec 15, 2013 at 10:19 PM
nandadevieast
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


Have you guys seen the Prague shots (DP3M) on Merrill special site? I love those.
Also, if you search 500px, the first 2 landscapes (Mt. Fuji) are wonderful. One of them is OOTW. I just saw that. These are DP2 Merrill scapes.

There is a look in those images that's hard to replicate. Smooth tones. Sharp. Clear. Very film like. I think those things are beyond resolution and DR...its just pure art.




Dec 15, 2013 at 10:47 PM
Taylor Sherman
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


Every time I look at the Merril threads I recoil from the over-sharpening. Not necessarily the camera's fault? but still.



Dec 15, 2013 at 10:55 PM
sflxn
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


Mawz summarized it well. Other than per pixel sharpness, the Merrills suffers from much lower dynamic range and hard to fix color cast. Plus, they suffer during the shooting process and in post processing. Not many people are willing to suffer through that when you have high DR, high megapixel cameras like the A7R and D800E. The Merrills all have incredible per pixel sharpness, but that alone doesn't make a great image.

Go to flickr, look up Sigma Merrills. Now do a search for D800E, NEX 7, Fuji X. See a difference? I do. Can you make judgement of a camera based on what you see on the internet? I do. You can make your own judgement. Per pixel sharpness does not equal high dynamic range and great colors. I believe my eyes and not marketing specs. Plus, I'm a lot more technical than the average joe and know the real truth about the Foveon sensor.



Dec 15, 2013 at 11:05 PM
Spyro P.
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


jcolwell wrote:
Well,

(i) this is not a "landscape forum"


I think mostly it is landscape/nature+cityscape



Dec 15, 2013 at 11:16 PM
JonPB
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


Spyro P. wrote:
I think mostly it is landscape/nature+cityscape


I think it is mostly that we're extremely particular about our gear--and making the best possible decisions when we change our kits. Almost by definition, the best offerings from the major photo companies aren't good enough for us, for whatever reason.

That said, when we're happy with our kits, we don't talk about them as much. I'd bet there are more then a few folks around here who are quite content with their Merrills, which seem to deliver what they promise and not much else. Sony cameras, on the other hand, are only one manifestation of what they could possibly be, so we talk a lot about them.

Cheers,
Jon



Dec 15, 2013 at 11:36 PM
nandadevieast
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


The HDR type harsh look that's so off-putting is the result of over-zealous attempts to show off the Foveon sensor. Merrills are natively very sharp and if you shoot them in the contrasty light without dialling down the sharpness, the results can look bad. But then, photographers don't shoot in bad light, bayer or foveon.

Sharpness is not the end of it all. Foveon fans have been selling the sharpness to you over the years and that's not what the Foveon look is all about, i think. Dpreview Sigma forum where many people go seeking advice before venturing into X3 territory is perhaps the worst place to go. (Same) Peple will post bad pictures showing off the sharpness and the 3D look. That small group of people, not all of them, have done more harm than good to the Foveon 'cause'.

Again if you go to 500px and search for DP2 Merrill shots, you will find many low key shots by mostly Japanese guys which are soft, beautiful examples of fine art. Even the Mt. Fuji landscape...pictures of flowers etc....

...the kind of sharpness that the Merrills can deliver, in my experience, is about 'Clear-ness'. I said Clear-ness because its so different from LR's Clarity slider which Snapsy was talking about (wide radius sharpening).

The clear-ness is what many have aptly described as 'lifting of a veil' from your image. This veil is what my DSLR can't get rid of, no matter how sharp the image is. The moment i put it next to a Merrill shot, its so obvious. No amount of sharpening is going to make them that clear...it will only get harsh and edge-sharp...and its not just about lack of AA filter. I think its how that sensor sees.

Thats what i meant by lack of fuzz...it can deal with great light, soft subjects etc. in the hands of a good photographer, in a way that is rare (film like?). Subtle tones? Texture? Realism? Look at Prague shots.

I think Foveon fans should be talking about these things and not the sharpness that can get ugly.



Dec 15, 2013 at 11:54 PM
cputeq
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


I'll admit, I love the Foveon look and the landscape images I see with it can be absolutely stunning.

That said, I just can't see paying so much for a one-trick pony. Maybe one day I'll get to try one out.







Dec 16, 2013 at 12:25 AM
Chrissearle
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Why Merrills not so hot on a mostly 'landscape' forum?


I shoot 5D3 and Zeiss glass, plus DP2 and 3M. There is a 'Foveon look' that is, in my opinion, much more obvious that the 'Zeiss look' and I cannot obtain it from 5D3 files and certainly not with USM. I am also NOT talking about oversharpening either. OK, you may not like it and you may not like the ergonomics of the camera or the slow workflow BUT:
To me and many other people this look is unique and desirable and well worth the cost. The camera is robust and easy to use (personally, I have no use for art filters or smile detect shutters). The software is powerful and interesting, and reliable - on my i7 MBP it has never faltered.
Certainly, you need to take care with exposure, but then I feel that maybe you should be doing this anyway.
It's interesting how these amazing little cameras can provoke such strong reactions, and often the spouting of simply incorrect assertions, I simply can't understand it.



Dec 16, 2013 at 04:22 AM
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