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Archive 2013 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?

  
 
Wilbus
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?


Hey, just bought a Fujifilm X100s and love it!

However I do have a question, does anyone know or have any ideas why they have limited the max ISO to 6400 when shooting RAW? Are there any technical limitations to allowing RAW to go above ISO 6400 and just name it "extended" like other companies do?

I've tested 12800 and 25600 with JPG with noise reduction set to 0 (in fairly good light but stopped down to F16) and they look amazing, lots of detail, low noise. I haven't tested in very low light yet though.

Considering the performance of the JPG's why shouldn't we be able to use very high ISO in RAW and just do noise reduction our selves? Is it because Fuji feels that post process noise reduction can't be done as well?

Any ideas to "why" are welcome :-)



Dec 09, 2013 at 06:29 AM
Jman13
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?


As to why, I don't know. It's an odd move. Luckily, you can just underexposed a stop and push it in your RAW converter if you absolutely need the shutter speed, since that's what cameras do in expanded modes anyway.

Perhaps Fuji just thinks RAW files shouldn't be pumped beyond what the actual hardware amplification does.



Dec 09, 2013 at 07:04 AM
Wilbus
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?


Yeah pushing it in post is of course possible but it would be nice "not to have to". I mean, naming it "extended" like most other companies do would solve the possible problem of people complaining about "bad" image quality at ultra high ISO's. Just odd, just like you said

One would think that since Fuji is defiantly aiming the camera at the advanced market they would understand that the market would also be competent enough to make that kind of decision. But hey, not a big deal, I was just curious as to why :-)

Thanks for the reply btw. (And yeah, I decided to go for a X100s rather then either the Xe-2 or X-Pro 1 at the moment )



Dec 09, 2013 at 10:32 AM
millsart
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?


I believe 6400 is the limit as far as sensor sensitivity goes and the higher iso settings in jpeg are simply pushed exposures, that same as you could do with the RAW file in post.

I really don't understand what your complaint is though, as the camera gives you the option to have it automatically push the exposure for you in JPEG, and given you need to process the RAW file anyways, just underexpose it.

I'm not following where your making the "not to have to" push in post comment though, do you mean in regards to raw files ?

If so, I just don't understand how the camera could give you an already pushed RAW file, as then it really wouldn't be a raw file any longer




Dec 09, 2013 at 11:21 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?


millsart wrote:
I'm not following where your making the "not to have to" push in post comment though, do you mean in regards to raw files ?

If so, I just don't understand how the camera could give you an already pushed RAW file, as then it really wouldn't be a raw file any longer


Many cameras/sensors switch to digital multiplication of image data ("pushing") well before their highest max nominal ISO. That said, it's preferable to do this in post rather than in the raw because it gives you more dynamic range flexibility (ie, you can limit the pushing to the shadows/midtones, retaining the highlight area).



Dec 09, 2013 at 11:25 AM
Wilbus
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?


millsart wrote:
I believe 6400 is the limit as far as sensor sensitivity goes and the higher iso settings in jpeg are simply pushed exposures, that same as you could do with the RAW file in post.

I really don't understand what your complaint is though, as the camera gives you the option to have it automatically push the exposure for you in JPEG, and given you need to process the RAW file anyways, just underexpose it.

I'm not following where your making the "not to have to" push in post comment though, do you mean in regards to raw files ?

If so, I
...Show more


Hmmmmm no complaint at all actually, none what so ever. It was simply a question as to "why" when most other companies has the ability for RAW extended (usually 12800 and 25600).

The reason for me to wanting that in RAW as well, rather then just JPG is because when the camera is in JPG all settings are applied already. I can't generally change WB in a good way for example. Yes I know I can just shoot 6400 and push it but it's not really the point. Like I said, no complaint so no need to be offended.

The camera is terrific, in fact, it's pretty much perfect so far (only had it a few days). It's everything, and more, I hoped for.



Dec 09, 2013 at 11:32 AM
millsart
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?


snapsy wrote:
Many cameras/sensors switch to digital multiplication of image data ("pushing") well before their highest max nominal ISO. That said, it's preferable to do this in post rather than in the raw because it gives you more dynamic range flexibility (ie, you can limit the pushing to the shadows/midtones, retaining the highlight area).



I know that is true as far as processed JPEG's going, but what I'm not understanding is how it would work with a RAW file

I guess instead of just underexposing a stop the camera could tell you your at normal exposure but then that seems like it would be even more confusing because it would effectively be reporting false EXIF values for the raw data, which you'd still have to push in processing anyways




Dec 09, 2013 at 11:33 AM
Wilbus
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?


snapsy wrote:
Many cameras/sensors switch to digital multiplication of image data ("pushing") well before their highest max nominal ISO. That said, it's preferable to do this in post rather than in the raw because it gives you more dynamic range flexibility (ie, you can limit the pushing to the shadows/midtones, retaining the highlight area).


I didn't know that. However, like you say, it's preferable to do it in post. Not only can you choose where to do it but it gives you more control of everything.



Dec 09, 2013 at 11:33 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Fujifilm X-trans limited ISO with RAW, why?


millsart wrote:
I know that is true as far as processed JPEG's going, but what I'm not understanding is how it would work with a RAW file

I guess instead of just underexposing a stop the camera could tell you your at normal exposure but then that seems like it would be even more confusing because it would effectively be reporting false EXIF values for the raw data, which you'd still have to push in processing anyways



"High ISO" refers to the amplification of image data coming off the sensor. For the first few ISOs (100->200, 100->400, 100->800), most cameras/sensors do analog amplification of the image data as part of the analog-to-digital conversion. There is a point in most sensors where the analog amplification no longer provides any noise benefits, at which point they switch to simply doubling the values of the raw data digitally rather than doing it in the ADC. The transition point is seamless in terms of raw files because the effect is the same regardless of the method used; the double/trippling/quadrupling/etc. of the raw data values.



Dec 09, 2013 at 11:40 AM





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