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Client admits she's going to copy prints
  
 
RustyBug
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


+1 @ Can be challenging to figure out how to make lemonade out of lemons sometimes ... usually requires tossing in a bit of sugar though.


Dec 04, 2013 at 12:37 AM
Access
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


JohnBrose wrote:
I have a client that said she plans to copy my prints and give them out to friends etc.
...
Just wondering other's perspective.

None really, the key isn't what you do on this particular case but how you work and change your business model to work in the modern world. If your clients are copying and this is reducing your revenue, you need to make up the lost revenue in some fashion, ie. charge more up front, or an increased one-time charge for prints, something like that.

This is more of a big-picture thing, shouldn't be focused on just one individual or one ethical / moral consideration. I mean, she is honest and up front about it, at least. You know better than we do the revenue you need to make, the break-even points and so on to keep your business viable and (hopefully) growing, that is what matters here more than anything else.



Dec 04, 2013 at 12:53 AM
mdude85
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


Micky Bill wrote:
Lot's of people around here would rather "cut off their nose to spite their face" (as my mom used to say) and are offended by customer's silly antics than negotiate a win-win solution....


I don't know if a win-win solution is possible. The OP already said that the client is only willing to pay less than $100 for the photos, and planned to copy them at that price. To me this implies there is not much room to negotiate an "upsell" because the client already included the copies in her original valuation of the photo package.

It would seem that the OP needs to start selling photos on CD, or better yet, on social media.




Dec 04, 2013 at 04:17 PM
JoshI
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


Personally, I wouldn't threaten to prosecute her because it's likely an empty threat. I doubt you'd even find a lawyer willing to take the case. We're talking peanuts here as far as litigation is concerned; much less than the cost of a few hours of a lawyer's time.

I'd either refuse the sale and chalk it up to a lucky break, or I'd sell her the files. She get's what she wants and you make a sale without the additional costs of making the prints for her.

Access is right about seeing the bigger picture though. This customer is likely not the first of your customers to consider making copies of your prints. If selling prints works for you, it works for you, but it's not a business model in touch with today's event and portrait market.

Josh



Dec 04, 2013 at 05:21 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


mdude85 wrote:
To me this implies there is not much room to negotiate an "upsell" because the client already included the copies in her original valuation of the photo package.

And if she valued them @ $10 or $1 or $.01 ...

What the market will bear is when the seller and buyer come to an agreement. Trying to negotiate the upsell is part of trying to bring the two into agreement ... whatever that agreement might be. It could be price, terms, licensing, quantity, etc. If the seller isn't in agreement with the buyer, the seller will try to persuade the buyer to change something (i.e. negotiate). If the buyer isn't in agreement with the seller, the buyer will try to persuade the seller to change something (i.e. negotiate).

Until the two come to an agreement of some kind, the transaction never occurs. Who can move the other to their position and/or what changes will be made ... anything goes up to the point that they either agree and have a transaction, or can't agree and a transaction occurs.

The fact that they were NOT in agreement, means that a negotiation must occur to facilitate a transaction. The "upsell" may not be to actually raise his price even higher, but to raise her valuation of what he was offering to the price/terms which he finds agreeable. Somebody's got to move when they are not in agreement. You either choose to move down, or you figure out a way to get them to move up (or a little of both) ... or you don't reach an agreement, and subsequently no transaction occurs.

How much value can you add and how far can you move them up ... that depends on may things, so it isn't set in stone. But, it is a fact of life that when at a disagreement, somebody(s) gonna have to change up/down ... i.e. are they moving you down, or are you moving them up (hence the term upsell).

If he's not in agreement with her copying (or price she's willing to pay) ... somebody's gotta change something ... be that him or her.




Dec 04, 2013 at 06:31 PM
mdude85
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


Thank you for that very lengthy description of a negotiation. Do you get paid by the word?

The problem here is twofold:
1) the client has already valued the OP's prints plus any copies she makes at less than $100; and
2) the difference between what the OP is willing to sell the photos for and what the client is willing to pay is not very high -- about $50.

These basic facts limit the amount of "upsell potential" for the OP. The OP must figure out how to add value to the package that the client has not yet considered in her calculation -- or must convince the client that she benefits from paying more for the ability to make copies.

Even if he can succeed in this, the payoff may not be worth it -- the OP should consider changing his business model to make more money from digital copies.



Dec 04, 2013 at 06:59 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


By my rough calculations, I only make $0.0000000000001/word. It might be a while before I actually make a buck, so I figure I should get busy.

The initial principle that the OP was concerned with was the legal one. The purpose of my post was to (re)present the principle that he may want to consider giving more weight to ... i.e. what the market will bear (upsell/negotiation being a component thereof).



Dec 05, 2013 at 04:02 AM
Micky Bill
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


RustyBug wrote:
By my rough calculations, I only make $0.0000000000001/word. It might be a while before I actually make a buck, so I figure I should get busy.
.


Don't get me started on the epic Rusty v Chuck G word salad death matches....



Dec 05, 2013 at 04:21 AM
BenV
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


I'd personally take the $150 and just not deal with the client again.


Dec 06, 2013 at 04:15 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


Micky Bill wrote:
Don't get me started on the epic Rusty v Chuck G word salad death matches....


Thanks.

Your point is salient to the concept of valuation relative to perception. As noted above, valuation is negotiable relative to that of perceived value. The ability to influence a persuasion that creates a change in someone's perception of a valuation is something of a skill/talent/art unto itself. One that, imo is unfortunately misunderstood by many as to its significance.

Suffice to say that the value of an image, a car, a job, a camera, a lens ... or even the value of a word ... can have different value to different people. Knowing how to influence a change in valuation is important, but it is also important to recognize when you do and/or don't have the ability to effect such a change in valuation.

For some, our words have little value, while for others they are nuggets of gold. Trying to change that valuation of what someone thinks about what you have to say is just another form of negotiation/persuasion. Sometimes no persuasion is needed as some may perceive the value, other times such persuasion is warranted to effect the change, and yet others you do not have the ability to make that change in a timely manner, sometimes that extends to never for those who are steadfast in their own sense of valuation.

Whether we are talking about words or images ... recognizing when it is worth the effort to try and persuade someone will depend on your ability to persuade them and their tendencies toward such persuasion and the effort it will require to do so and the potential benefit.

Sometimes it is better to simply accept that it isn't worth the effort vs. thinking that you need to win them all at all costs. It is your time, effort and energy that you are expending. Is it worth it ... that's a judgment call as it is your time and your money. It's your business, it's your call at how much persuasion you can apply to negotiating an increase in another person's valuation of your product ... be that images or words.

So, do you take the quick money and move on to the next one ... or do you put forth the effort to upsell?

Your business, your call.




Dec 07, 2013 at 03:24 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



RustyBug
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


BenV wrote:
I'd personally take the $150 and just not deal with the client again.


+1 @ this ^^ is likely the easiest solution to this one.

But, the scenario suggests that the OP had an expectation that the customer should see things his way ... and sometimes they don't. Imo, this customer isn't the real issue, but rather indicative of how the OP views transactions in the marketplace and the relevance of being able to move a persons valuation in his direction when they don't readily value it the same as he does.

Maybe this isn't the case for the OP after all, but it still serves to remind us that our ability to move valuation is pertinent to our endeavors.



Dec 07, 2013 at 03:38 PM
markd61
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


BenV wrote:
I'd personally take the $150 and just not deal with the client again.


And chalk the difference in lost print sales up to tuition in the school of hard knocks.

I still find myself with the occasional stinky client after 25 years in the business. I get past the transaction and keep my cool and reputation and just remember to be booked whenever they come calling again.



Dec 08, 2013 at 04:07 AM
scottam10
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


The photos are worth nothing on your hard drive; I'd be inclined to take the sale

What is your pricing model - is a fixed price per print or is there a discount for multiple copies?

To me, it makes sense to give a discount for multiple copies, because for you the bulk of the work is creating the image file (taking the photo plus time on post production work)
- making an extra print really doesn't cost you much, so you could afford to sell extra copies for not much more than the cost of materials.



Dec 08, 2013 at 04:42 AM
glort
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


scottam10 wrote:
The photos are worth nothing on your hard drive; I'd be inclined to take the sale


I think there are about 7 sides to this one, it's like a business brain teaser with probably no universally correct answer.

I would be totally ticked off too is some smart arse client with attitude laid that on me. My tendency is to be twice as offensive as I get and the same when people treat me nice.
Putting on my big boys hat, there is one bit of information that is HIGHLY relevant to me here.

The pics are of her and her horse.
Now to me, that spins things somewhat. If it were like a team photo or had multiple people that the answer would be Get stu..... errr, sorry, the images are no longer available. Given that there are few, well 99.9% chance NOBODY else is going to buy them, I would consider the loss minimal to non existent.

In this instance I would be of the position as quoted, they are worth nothing to me on the hard drive and $150 is a significant portion of my days sales when I did equine event work so I would take it..... then I'd have another think...

-IF- I do take her money, what's the bigger picture? Is she going to tell all her other friends that she told you she was going to copy them and you sold them to her anyway and therefore create the impression this is OK?
If this is a regular gig, that may be something to consider. If not, then it's probably not significant.


One thing I would be doing if I DID sell her the pics would be to make sure there was a copyright symbol on the actual print itself and have a stamp or lable on the back with a not copying statement just on the off chance she tales the shot to a lab or something. She can get around both but maybe it just might get the message across a bit more and may even get her an initial knock back somewhere.

There are a lot of angles to the question, I think we can only make suggestions to the OP of considerations but really he is the only one that knows the little details that have the real influence as to what the right way to go is.



Dec 11, 2013 at 09:40 AM
Paul Mo
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


^ Good points.


Dec 11, 2013 at 09:55 AM
JoshI
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


glort wrote:
-IF- I do take her money, what's the bigger picture? Is she going to tell all her other friends that she told you she was going to copy them and you sold them to her anyway and therefore create the impression this is OK?


Some good points in there. The other side of that coin is that if you refuse the sale, is she going to tell all of her other friends? Most likely. And they'll never hear your side of the story, so they're customers you'll never get (or get back).



Dec 13, 2013 at 01:40 AM
bnoeggs
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


Do not sell...she is violating the basic agreement be it verbal or written. She's not going to sue you..
Post in your photo site/blog. Make it a known issue. You are not hidnig anything then. Some times the best defense is the strong offense. Avoid using her name in the blog. If you did and she took you to court, a burden of proof that you were not defaming her would be your burden. Not good.

Lose the sale...fire the customer. Forget the lousy $100-150...It's a small cost in the long term.



Dec 16, 2013 at 02:54 AM
bruce smith 10
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


People with horses in the New York area spend $800- $2500 a month to keep a horse in the barn and she asking to reduce the price. I would meet with her with the prints then tear them in pieces and let her scan them!


Dec 17, 2013 at 08:34 PM
Access
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


Seriously one should not bring drama into the situation, just do what you are going to do and move on.

There really isn't a clear or right answer of what to do with this particular customer, but getting hung up or dwelling on it too long would be wrong. Sell, don't sell, or whatever; in the scheme of things it is just one thing. What's important is the long term, ie. make sure the payment model matches up with the real world as it is today, and make sure you can survive in a world as it is today.

What the customer did isn't good, but at least she had the audacity / honesty / straightforward demeanor to admit it. So it might be a wake-up call if the OP didn't already know it.



Dec 18, 2013 at 12:09 AM
chez
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Client admits she's going to copy prints


bruce smith 10 wrote:
People with horses in the New York area spend $800- $2500 a month to keep a horse in the barn and she asking to reduce the price. I would meet with her with the prints then tear them in pieces and let her scan them!


Yep...that's one hell of a good way to quickly gain a bad reputation, especially if you ever think again shooting horses or horse shows. Not to mention how totally unprofessional you would look. Over...totally stupid advice. Either take the money but discuss your displeasure for the client wanting to copy your prints...or don't take the money politely explaining your principals. In either case you need to conduct yourself like a professional, not a jerk.



Dec 18, 2013 at 02:59 AM
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