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Archive 2013 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

Evangelos
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

Just wondering if there is anything prohibiting one from using Leica S lenses on an a7/a7r, aside from available adaptors of course.

Thanks in advance!

Evan.

Nov 30, 2013 at 11:20 PM

freaklikeme
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

The aperture's electronically controlled, so you'd need a smart adapter or shoot them wide open. But I bet they're all pretty great wide open.

Dec 01, 2013 at 12:53 AM

ISO1600
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

What is the S lineup? Aren't there only like 3- all big, slow, and expensive?

just curious.

Dec 01, 2013 at 01:25 AM

sirimiri
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

There are "thrice" that number.

Dec 01, 2013 at 01:36 AM

zoffdino
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

ISO1600 wrote:
What is the S lineup? Aren't there only like 3- all big, slow, and expensive?

just curious.

There are about 15 S lenses released so far, with many in stock at B&H. Take a look.

These are medium-format lenses, where f/4 is plenty fast. Most of the S range goes down to f/2.5 so they are definitely not slow. They are big, yes, but again, they are for medium format.

Dec 01, 2013 at 01:38 PM

ISO1600
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

haha!
i followed that link, saw the first price, and closed it.

Dec 01, 2013 at 08:56 PM

Dpedraza
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

No offense but if you're Bing the leica s lenses you should be buying the s2 to put them on. Cost to benefit just isn't there unless you the s system. They're a lot more expensive than majority of the m Mount lenses

Dec 01, 2013 at 09:47 PM

mawz
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

zoffdino wrote:
There are about 15 S lenses released so far, with many in stock at B&H. Take a look.

These are medium-format lenses, where f/4 is plenty fast. Most of the S range goes down to f/2.5 so they are definitely not slow. They are big, yes, but again, they are for medium format.

9 lenses actually, not 15 (there's two versions of many of those lenses covering the lens shutter and focal plane shutter versions of each optical design).

None are notably fast, they're the typical f2.8-3.5 of most modern MF lenses. The exception is the 120/2.5 Makro-Elmarit, which is faster than the typical f4 of most 120 Makro's. The 70/2.5 (the only other f2.5 lens in the system) is not unusually fast for a normal, where f2 and f1.9 options exist for other systems (Hy6 and Mamiya 645 respectively).

The S system is not actually medium format, it's a tweener system with a sensor size in between 35mm and Medium Format, offering the handling and weather sealing of a 35mm system and the sensor performance of MF (in other words, nice now due to the superb lens lineup, but a D800E with a carefully selected set of lenses, particularly the new Otus 55/1.4, will likely deliver superior results at any ISO other than base ISO and if it can't answer your needs, you're likelyt to get more benefit from moving up to a proper MF system in the 60-80MP range). The S system made far more sense when 35mm bodies were mired in the low-20MP range and there was no midsize, high-resolution option available. Frankly the logic behind the S system is pretty much identical to the logic behind the original 4/3rds system (a semi-compact system designed natively for a smaller crop sensor with extremely good lenses and weather sealing). Unfortunately it seems to have had similar success (and frankly I could totally see a m43 equivalent in the S system taking off if the pricing is reasonable, that would make for a hella interesting co-operation between Panasonic and Leica).

I do think a Metabones/Conurus Smart Adapter for the systems could be very interesting, particularly for the 120 Makro, the 180 and maybe the 70/2.5

Dec 01, 2013 at 11:03 PM

ISO1600
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

mawz +100000

Dec 02, 2013 at 04:44 AM

peterv
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

mawz wrote:
None are notably fast, they're the typical f2.8-3.5 of most modern MF lenses. The exception is the 120/2.5 Makro-Elmarit, which is faster than the typical f4 of most 120 Makro's. The 70/2.5 (the only other f2.5 lens in the system) is not unusually fast for a normal, where f2 and f1.9 options exist for other systems (Hy6 and Mamiya 645 respectively).

Actually, the 35 mm is also an f2,5.
Other lenses (accept the 180/3,5, the outstanding 24/3,5 and the 30-90/3,5/5,6) are all f2,8.

The S lenses are very, very good. Nothing like the Canikons. The Otus? Probably close but certainly not better from what I've seen, besides, you loose AF which you have on all S lenses (accept for the T/S) and the S equivalent to the Otus is about the same price with AF, which on the S is not the fastest, but extremely accurate.

As for the D800 vs S, lemons and oranges, totally different beasts really. The CCD is not as good as the latest and greatest CMOS WRT high ISO's (I use the S2 regularly @1250 ISO and wouldn't hesitate to print at 20x30") but otherwise the IQ from the S sensor is in a different league as far as color, acuity and tonal smoothness are concerned. Don't be misguided by the fact that the D800, the A7r (fine cameras) and the S have around the same amount of MP's, there's more to IQ.

As for the original S to E mount adapter question, I think that would be a very logical step for Metabones, Novoflex and/or Conorus. Last summer I asked the people at Conorus about this, and they replied they don't comment on future products in any way. We'll have to wait and see ...

Regards,
Peter

Dec 02, 2013 at 05:58 PM

douglasf13
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

The difference in size between the S2 and A7r sensors is pretty similar to the size difference between m4/3 and aps-c sensors, FWIW.

Dec 02, 2013 at 07:16 PM

mawz
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

peterv wrote:
Actually, the 35 mm is also an f2,5.
Other lenses (accept the 180/3,5, the outstanding 24/3,5 and the 30-90/3,5/5,6) are all f2,8.

The S lenses are very, very good. Nothing like the Canikons. The Otus? Probably close but certainly not better from what I've seen, besides, you loose AF which you have on all S lenses (accept for the T/S) and the S equivalent to the Otus is about the same price with AF, which on the S is not the fastest, but extremely accurate.

As for the D800 vs S, lemons and oranges, totally different beasts really. The CCD is not as...Show more →

Peter, there's no doubt the S2's sensor wins in terms of acuity. Tonal smoothness is a tossup IMHO (it's got more to do with pixel count and the ADC than with sensor size or type, unlike with film) and it's FAR behind the D800 in DR. Calling the IQ contest is pretty much a wash or a D800 win, the S2 has some advantages offset by the D800's (and D800E) own set of advantages which are frankly somewhat more wide ranging (DR, noise, colour accuracy). The main issue here is all the S2's real advantages in IQ are in areas where the PhaseOne backs are far better than the S2. It's nice, but it's no IQ280 (which is the real problem, where the S2 outmatches the D800, the Phase backs outmatch the S2)

Note the some of the Nikon lenses are significantly superior to anything the S system offers. There's nothing comparable to the 24 or 45 PC-E, nothing comparable to the 24/1.4G or 14-24. If you add in the Zeiss MF glass it's even more telling (the 180 is no 135 APO-Sonnar). The flip side is there's nothing in F mount comparable to the 120 macro and I will agree that if you want AF and primes the S2 probably has the better all-round lineup for lenses as the AF Nikkors in the same class are few and far between, a truly high-end system for the D800 relies highly on Zeiss MF glass. Although given the effective difference in aperture, nothing comparable to the fastest F mount lenses exists in S mount.

The Otus appears to outmatch the 70/2.5. It's not even close at wide aperture from the samples I've seen and that's no indictment of how good the 70/2.5 is, it's a superb lens and better than any other F mount normal by a fair margin. But the Otus seems to be in a class of its own in terms of outright performance at wide aperture, stopped down it's probably a wash, but given the 70/2.5 is more expensive and at best an equal that's not a great claim. Remember you need to stop the Otus down to f2 to get the equivalent DoF and total illumination of the 70/2.5 wide open.

Edited on Dec 03, 2013 at 12:43 AM · View previous versions

Dec 03, 2013 at 12:36 AM

mawz
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

douglasf13 wrote:
The difference in size between the S2 and A7r sensors is pretty similar to the size difference between m4/3 and aps-c sensors, FWIW.

Actually it's about half of that. The difference between the A7r and an IQ280 is just about the same as the difference between 35mm FF and APS-C (or APS-C and m43) at a ~1.5x crop factor.

The S2's sensor to 35mm is a 1.25x crop factor, less than the difference between 35mm FF and a Canon 1DIV's sensor. The S2 sensor is only slightly larger than a half a 645 frame (30x45, exactly half the nominal 645 frame, but larger than half the actual 40.4x53.9mm of a current 645 'FF' sensor (actual 645 FF is more like 41.5mmx56mm)

Dec 03, 2013 at 12:41 AM

douglasf13
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

mawz wrote:
Actually it's about half of that. The difference between the A7r and an IQ280 is just about the same as the difference between 35mm FF and APS-C (or APS-C and m43) at a ~1.5x crop factor.

The S2's sensor to 35mm is a 1.25x crop factor, less than the difference between 35mm FF and a Canon 1DIV's sensor. The S2 sensor is only slightly larger than a half a 645 frame (30x45, exactly half the nominal 645 frame, but larger than half the actual 40.4x53.9mm of a current 645 'FF' sensor (actual 645 FF is more like 41.5mmx56mm)

Maybe I figured it wrong, but I thought that a 135 sensor is 64% of the area of the S2's sensor, and a m4/3 sensor is 61% of the area of an aps-c sensor.

Dec 03, 2013 at 01:07 AM

phuang3
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

Evangelos wrote:
Just wondering if there is anything prohibiting one from using Leica S lenses on an a7/a7r, aside from available adaptors of course.

Thanks in advance!

Evan.

It's possible. I have an electronic Contax 645-to-EF adapter, and Leica also introduced C645-to-S adapter. I asked the designer to make S-to-EF adapter, and he said it's not a problem. The only problem is that he can't afford an S system (including lenses) for development.

Dec 03, 2013 at 01:34 AM

zhangyue
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

mawz wrote:
Actually it's about half of that. The difference between the A7r and an IQ280 is just about the same as the difference between 35mm FF and APS-C (or APS-C and m43) at a ~1.5x crop factor.

The S2's sensor to 35mm is a 1.25x crop factor, less than the difference between 35mm FF and a Canon 1DIV's sensor. The S2 sensor is only slightly larger than a half a 645 frame (30x45, exactly half the nominal 645 frame, but larger than half the actual 40.4x53.9mm of a current 645 'FF' sensor (actual 645 FF is more like 41.5mmx56mm)

I was seriously thought about S2, until I figured its sensor size is not significant to justify MF rendering, consider their f2.5 native lens.
For me to go MF, it is not pix count but rendering. Pick up a Contax 645 is better bet for occasional MF need.

Dec 03, 2013 at 02:44 AM

mawz
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

douglasf13 wrote:
Maybe I figured it wrong, but I thought that a 135 sensor is 64% of the area of the S2's sensor, and a m4/3 sensor is 61% of the area of an aps-c sensor.

I'm comparing on the diagonal, which scales linearly with sensor size, area increases faster as sensor size goes up. So the S2's sensor has a larger area advantage than it does on the diagonal. This fact renders area-based comparisons irrelevant when comparing sensors in different size classes.

Dec 03, 2013 at 08:51 AM

naturephoto1
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

When comparing the size of the S2, as a camera versus say a D4 it is amazing as to the size (and handling) of the 2 cameras sensors and the resolution and performance of the Leica S glass. Then when the D800 was released and comparing the size of the S2 versus the size of the D800 the size between the cameras was still amazing though the sensor size difference was still substantial though the resolution differences between the cameras has lessened. Now when comparing the size of the S2 versus the A7r, the A7r is substantially smaller. Though for this comparison, like with the D800, the sensor size difference is still substantial the resolution difference again not what it uses to be. At one point I had just for a moment considered the S2. Now with the introduction of the A7r, no longer the case.

The S2 glass is outstanding, but very costly. To consider using the S2 glass on the A7r, We have to compare the best available existing legacy MF and the native Sony and Zeiss AF and the Zeiss MF glass that will be coming to decide if such an investment and adaption would make much sense.

Rich

Dec 03, 2013 at 09:16 AM

douglasf13
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

naturephoto1 wrote:
When comparing the size of the S2, as a camera versus say a D4 it is amazing as to the size (and handling) of the 2 cameras sensors and the resolution and performance of the Leica S glass. Then when the D800 was released and comparing the size of the S2 versus the size of the D800 the size between the cameras was still amazing though the sensor size difference was still substantial though the resolution differences between the cameras has lessened. Now when comparing the size of the S2 versus the A7r, the A7r is substantially smaller. Though for...Show more →

I'm not sure I'd call the sensor size difference substantial. Like mawz said, it's closer than the difference between the M8 and M9. Gold box is an H3DII50, blue is the S2, and white is 35mm:
http://www.teddillard.com/uploaded_images/Picture-1-719969.png

Dec 03, 2013 at 09:36 AM

joe88
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Leica S lenses on an a7/r??

It would be interesting to see someone develop a smart electronic Leica S adapter for the A7R. I would be interested to try some of the S lenses on an alternate platform as those lenses are among the best photographic lenses I have used.

Respectfully, its funny to hear the same arguments we see on this thread, when some like to compare say an APS-C sensor with 24MP with say D700 with 12Mp or how a m43 sensor is better than brand xyz APP-C sensor. I think each system has its own pros and cons and comparing pixel size is only one variable to choosing a camera system? One also has to consider lens availability as a system. The Leica S platform trumps with its superb lenses which has an AF chip individually matched and calibrated to each S2/S sensor. Medium format truly comes to its own in controlled shooting with strobes where central shutters and fast flash sync speeds are what sets them apart from 35mm format.

The performance of the S lenses combined with Leica S unique focal/ central shutter system makes up for the slightly smaller Leica sensor compared to other medium format sensors of similar megapixels. Leica's slightly smaller chosen sensor size also allows for lenses slighly faster than comparable medium format systems from Hassy, Phase One, Schneider, etc and also for a slighly smaller body with similar ergonomics to a DSLR.

I think the D800E with Zeiss Otus would be a great combination and will match or surpass IQ wise over some medium format systems but until we see a few other focal lengths available, its not a viable option for many medium format shooters yet.

Dec 03, 2013 at 10:52 AM

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