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Archive 2013 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography

  
 
TJ Asher
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


Howdy gang.

I realize this may be a bit off topic and I apologize if so but it seemed most appropriate here in the landscape forum where I see an awful lot of really great astromomy/night sky photographs.

I'm specifically asking about getting shots WITHOUT star trails.

I know not everyone has an automatic tracking tripod head so how are you guys doing it?

I know from my experience that shooting anything over about 15 seconds leaves a star trail, even a short one.

Is everyone really using ISO 3200 or higher with these fantastic shots?

I'm about to travel to remote wilderness with no light pollution and want to see if I can get some interesting shots of the Milky Way over a lake.

Any advice, suggestions, sites to look at are appreciated!

Cheers!
TJ



Nov 25, 2013 at 11:56 PM
killersnowman
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


i use my 5D2 to shoot my astro images and i usually got to a max of around iso5000 and then use some noise reduction software like niks dfine2. I've also in the past done a couple of 10sec shots at iso3200 with some dark frames after and then manually aligned and stacked.

but....

i still run into issues with star photography because of one thing.... my 5D2. astrophotography is one of the few segments of photography that is really benefitting from the newer dSLRs. a D800 or 5D3 would do wonders for the noise in the images i take. but then again i always think about what my intended audience for an image is and for astrophotography it is usually small sized web viewing. its that way because most astro images are on the dark side and wont really print well (please prove me wrong) because of their dark nature. so while my images have noise in them, its ok, because the way people view them, they will never see it.

and take a bunch of different images at different ISOs while you are shooting so you can find the one that has the best balance of noise vs brightness for you.


***

one more thing to think about. viewing size also has a very big impact on exposure time. stars never stop moving so even though you think that a 10sec exposure for a wild angle lens will absolutely have no trails... it will. zoom in enough and you will see trails. so if you think about final viewing size you might be able to get away with a longer exposure time and a lower iso.



Nov 26, 2013 at 12:21 AM
JimFox
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


Hey TJ,

Most of us are shooting are static star shots at much closer to 30 secs, not 15 secs. Remember focal length is the determining factor. Plus, if you are going for shots without any absolute movement, then you need to get a tracking device. Shooting wideangle, there will be some movement, but it's movement that is seen when viewing at 100%. I could post tons of star shots taken at 25 to 30 secs and you won't be able to percieve any movement.

This question is a popular one, and if you search in here you will see dozens of threads that discuss the how to of taking static star shots. So a brief answer here.

As Tyler discusses, what camera you use will make a difference because if you want static shots, you will be using higher ISO's. As you probably already know the sky will get darker and darker after the sun sets. So your settings will also change.

Start at ISO 1600, f8 and say 15 secs. As it gets darker you will change your settings to go along with it. I usually go a little longer with the shutter speed first, then open up the aperture a bit. When you get to a 25 sec exposure at f4, then I would then increase the ISO as needed. Depending on how dark it is, it won't be uncommon to settle in a 30 sec exposure at ISO 4000 and f4. For me, I watch the histogram and not the LCD to gauge my exposure. Usually I expose so that it's 2 stops underexposed.

As you can see, settings can be very fluid, and I am sure others have variations. I know some that drop to f2.8 faster if they can. I am usually having foreground in my shots, so I do want to keep some DOF in my shots, so I prefer not to go all the way down to f2.8. But again, it's situational.

Hopefully that helps, but if you get a chance, I would definitely search the term "Milky Way" in here as there has been some really cool Milky Way shots recently, and there will be tips in there for you.

Jim



Nov 26, 2013 at 12:46 AM
matthewsaville
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


Yeah, the wider you can go, the more a 30 sec exposure looks okay. The Nikon 14-24mm at 14mm can handle 30 sec. exposures no problem.

If you're using a 24mm f/1.4 though, for example, you'll want to stick to shutter speeds 8-15 sec. or faster.

It all depends on how sharp your lenses are, and how good your ISO is. I recently tested the new Rokinon 16mm f/2 for example on a Nikon D7100, and I pulled off ISO 6400 and f/2 with some gorgeously sharp results!

It definitely has a lot to do with ambient light, which depends highly on your location and the moon. If for example you plan to visit the Racetrack during a new moon, you'll find that even f/1.4 and ISO 6400 leaves you with barely enough shutter speed to avoid blurring stars. Whereas the slightest hint of moonlight or light pollution can add 2-3 stops very quickly! Heck I've hand-held images by the light of a full moon before. :-)

Good luck! Here's a tutorial I've written this past year on the subject: http://www.slrlounge.com/photo-of-the-day-the-milky-way-in-rhyolite-ghost-town

=Matt=



Nov 26, 2013 at 02:34 AM
JimFox
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


matthewsaville wrote:
Yeah, the wider you can go, the more a 30 sec exposure looks okay. The Nikon 14-24mm at 14mm can handle 30 sec. exposures no problem.

If you're using a 24mm f/1.4 though, for example, you'll want to stick to shutter speeds 8-15 sec. or faster.

It all depends on how sharp your lenses are, and how good your ISO is. I recently tested the new Rokinon 16mm f/2 for example on a Nikon D7100, and I pulled off ISO 6400 and f/2 with some gorgeously sharp results!

It definitely has a lot to do with ambient light, which depends highly on your
...Show more


Hey Matt,

I will have to check out your tutorial, I am sure it is a great resource. I will have to disagree about your 8 to 15 secs for a 24mm... man... you would need to shoot at ISO 256,000 to shoot at night then...

The thing I had mentioned was perceived streaks. I shot a lot of star shots when I was at Mt Rainier earlier this year at 24mm because I was shooting at 16mm on my D800, so the widest I had left was a 24mm for the D600. And I shot lot's of 30 sec exposures and you are not seeing any streaks in those stars unless you are putting your eyeball right up to screen at 100%. A normal print, 16x20 doesn't show streaks unless again, you get you eyeball right there. At normal viewing distances, it looks fine.

Theoretical is fine and all, but I think the real world is a lot more tolerant when it comes to shooting lengths.

Anyway... my 3 cents...

Jim



Nov 26, 2013 at 04:08 AM
TJ Asher
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


Interesting info.

I appreciate the ideas.

@Matt - interesting ideas in the tutorial - Thanks!

@Jim - I did actually try to search but I did not find anything at all. I must not be doing it right. I'll try "milky way" - Thanks!



Nov 26, 2013 at 07:22 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


Maximizing your shutter speed reduces noise. You'll have to play around with the shutter speed, but I agree for a wide angle lens, I'd start with 25-30 secs and then review your image on the camera's lcd screen at magnification. I agree with Jim that pinpoint stars at 100% are not necessary for most situations/persons as you lose the detail with the increased iso. It's a trade off with tiny weeny trails vs. noise which obscures everything into mush.

Be sure to look at your histogram as well. For the night sky you want the histogram peak to be in between the 25 and 40% region. The image may look too bright on your camera lcd, but that's ok. Avoiding underexposure can help a great deal with noise.

Stacking sky images can make a significant difference with noise, tracker not required.
Even without a tracker, you can reduce your noise by taking, say, a dozen 25 sec images and stack them in a program called Deep Sky Stacker. Make sure to take an equal amount of 'darks' (pictures with the exact same settings but with the lens cap on), and 'bias' (pictures with the exact same settings, with lens cap on, but at your highest shutter speed). Then take one image of the foreground with settings, focus, and time of day optimized for the foreground. You may want to take the foreground image at dusk/twilight which allows more detail and less noise. This also permits accurate live view focusing for when there is no ambient light later.

The milky way in the northern hemisphere is best seen in the summer/warmer months, but anytime is a good time to enjoy nature! There are many photos that include clouds in the night sky that are amazing, so don't get too hung up on the weather. Just use your vision and technique to make the most out of a beautiful scene.

Strongly consider purchasing Adam Block's Mount Lemmon Sky Center astro tutorial, making every pixel perfect. There are some great techniques you can use for the night sky and milky way. You don't need a telescope and ccd camera to take advantage of his techniques.

David



Nov 26, 2013 at 08:50 AM
chili555
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


Photographing the Milky Way is a delicate balancing act. As has been noted, if the exposure is too long, the stars are trails and not sharp dots. Therefor, in order to reduce the exposure time, we increase the ISO but that introduces noise.

In most viewing situations, the trails and noise are barely noticeable. Here is one of mine as an example: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chili5558/9909739764/ Nikon D800, Samyang 14mm lens, f/2.8, ISO 3200 for 20 seconds.

I can assure you that a 100% view of the original image shows very slight trails and ISO noise.

We can reduce trailing and high ISO noise by using tracking devices such as here: http://www.adorama.com/ATTT320X.html Then we can take 40-50 or more 1 minute shots and stack them in software. Why not 5 or 10 minute shots? Because then we introduce sensor noise from heating. As you can see, as in most things in life, you can get better and better results with more and more money, time and experience.

Can a determined photographer at a sufficiently dark site get a very nice Milky Way shot with a camera, fast wide lens and tripod? Absolutely. Can a determined photographer repeal the laws of physics and get NO star trails without a tracking mount and a mule to hump the gear to the top of the mountain? Probably not. I've tried.






Nov 26, 2013 at 09:21 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


chili555 wrote:
We can reduce trailing and high ISO noise by using tracking devices such as here: http://www.adorama.com/ATTT320X.html Then we can take 40-50 or more 1 minute shots and stack them in software. Why not 5 or 10 minute shots? Because then we introduce sensor noise from heating. As you can see, as in most things in life, you can get better and better results with more and more money, time and experience.



Certainly a tracker will yield better results, but I think the OP was looking for tips without a tracker. I have the astrotrac and it produces excellent results.

I would disagree, with my humble limited experience , and say 1 minute shots are unnecessarily short for all but the brightest objects (ie orion, etc). If you use a the often recommended 800 iso, have a fast lens (2.8 or better), I typically find I need exposures in the 3-4 minute range. I do agree that from all I have read >5 or 10 minutes starts to produce too much noise and I try to avoid that exposure time. That being said, I have a very clean milky way shot done at 7.5 minutes instead of the typical 3-4 minutes. The reasons for my prolonged exposure time are too embarrassing for me to admit without prodding!

David



Nov 26, 2013 at 09:59 AM
chili555
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


dgdg wrote:
Certainly a tracker will yield better results, but I think the OP was looking for tips without a tracker. I have the astrotrac and it produces excellent results.

I would disagree, with my humble limited experience , and say 1 minute shots are unnecessarily short for all but the brightest objects (ie orion, etc). If you use a the often recommended 800 iso, have a fast lens (2.8 or better), I typically find I need exposures in the 3-4 minute range. I do agree that from all I have read >5 or 10 minutes starts to produce too much noise and
...Show more
! I think I've been there and done that! I've pressed the button on the wired release, retreated to the comfort of my chair and Irish coffee and wondered when the timer was going to beep. Looking at the timer, I realized I forgot to press 'Start.' Oooops!!

I thought the OP wanted: "I'm specifically asking about getting shots WITHOUT star trails." My point was that you can have modest star trails or you can have tracking, take your pick. Otherwise defies the laws of physics in current lens and camera technology.




Nov 26, 2013 at 10:17 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


chili555 wrote:
! I think I've been there and done that! I've pressed the button on the wired release, retreated to the comfort of my chair and Irish coffee and wondered when the timer was going to beep. Looking at the timer, I realized I forgot to press 'Start.' Oooops!!

I thought the OP wanted: "I'm specifically asking about getting shots WITHOUT star trails." My point was that you can have modest star trails or you can have tracking, take your pick. Otherwise defies the laws of physics in current lens and camera technology.



Yup, ok - I agree with you.

I accidentally left the polarizer on my lens. I was confused about my exposure time as I knew approximately what it should have been. As always, I used my histogram as opposed to guessing exposure even I had been using the same gear as the night before. Didn't realize the error until later. Fortunately, it did not affect IQ, only the exposure. Glad I had good polar alignment. lol....



Nov 26, 2013 at 11:28 AM
JimFox
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


TJ Asher wrote:
Interesting info.

I appreciate the ideas.

@Matt - interesting ideas in the tutorial - Thanks!

@Jim - I did actually try to search but I did not find anything at all. I must not be doing it right. I'll try "milky way" - Thanks!


Hey TJ,

Here is one link: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1250915/0

I found it and 10 pages more of links by using the Search tool, and typiing in just "milky" then choiosing "Message Body" instead of "Topic Subject" for the search. I also choose Landscape instead of All Forums.

Jim



Nov 26, 2013 at 02:13 PM
Arka
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


I can usually shoot night-sky images without visible star trails at exposures of <20s at a focal length of <20mm. At 14mm, I can avoid star trails with exposures of of up to 30s. Anything slower than 30, and the trails start to rear their ugly heads. If you want to avoid the trails, don't be afraid to bump up the ISO. I've gone as high as 6400 for shooting aurorae and other fast-changing night-sky phenomena.

I also shoot at f/2.8. If you have close-foregound objects (even rocks underwater), you'll want to shoot focus brackets, and combine them later to maximize your DoF.



Nov 26, 2013 at 08:19 PM
Yukonica
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


dgdg wrote

"The milky way in the northern hemisphere is best seen in the summer/warmer months, but anytime is a good time to enjoy nature! There are many photos that include clouds in the night sky that are amazing, so don't get too hung up on the weather. Just use your vision and technique to make the most out of a beautiful scene."

I gave up trying to photograph stars in the summer…. too much light.
But I agree whole heartedly about just getting out and doing it.




Nov 26, 2013 at 10:39 PM
astro-ep
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


New cameras are definitely going to perform better. But one thing that I didn't see mentioned is temperature. For every 5-7 degrees of temperature (Celsius) drop, the camera noise is cut in half. This is why Astro cameras are cooled (I shoot mine at -30C). So if you're going to shoot in the wilderness, and it's cold, you can get better high-ISO performance out of a noisy camera, if the temperature is low. You can also take dark frames and subtract them from your images, which will remove a lot of noise and amp glow (if any). But the darks have to be shot at the same temperature, ISO and exposure length. So if you try various exposures, be sure to shoot a dark, immediately after (lens cap on).

Darks can be done internally (noise reduction setting on), but it will take a dark immediately after a light shot. So a 30 second image is now 1 minute. But it may be worth it if you are unfamiliar with dark subtraction.

Be sure to share your results.

Eric



Nov 27, 2013 at 10:00 AM
chili555
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


Yukonica wrote:
dgdg wrote

I gave up trying to photograph stars in the summer…. too much light.
But I agree whole heartedly about just getting out and doing it.



For those of us in North America, I find this site very helpful in finding dark sites. http://cleardarksky.com/csk/index.html#chart_list



Nov 27, 2013 at 10:14 AM
astro-ep
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


chili555 wrote:
For those of us in North America, I find this site very helpful in finding dark sites. http://cleardarksky.com/csk/index.html#chart_list



Or here:
http://www.jshine.net/astronomy/dark_sky/



Nov 27, 2013 at 10:20 AM
Kory Lidstrom
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · questions about astro/star/night sky photography


TJ! Good to see you're still alive man! Why didn't you just call me about this? I would've had you all set in no time. I've done a lot of night photography with Marc Adamus in the last six months helping him run his workshops and whatnot, so I've got night shooting down pat.

Here are the basics:

f/2.8, 20 seconds, ISO 6400, as wide as you can go (I use 16mm or 14mm)

Things to remember:

Longer than 20 seconds will result in blurred stars. The exception is if you're shooting the northern sky, then you can push it a bit because all start rotate around Polaris.

Keep your focal length WIDE. Longer focal lengths result in blurred stars.

Remember, that at f/2.8 and 16mm, your hyperfocal distance is 12 feet. So, either make sure everything in your composition is more than 12 feet away, OR blend for depth of field by taking several exposures.

Try to have something interesting protrude into your composition to add interest. Just plain ol' shots of the sky are boring. Marc loves to use Joshua Trees, but you can use anything as long as it makes a compelling silhouette that is recognizeable and doesn't move.

Don't worry about the noise at ISO 6400. If you know your post-processing, this is easily overcome. If not, CALL ME and I'll help you out since you've helped me in the past. Furthermore, many of todays cameras (Nikon D800, Canon 5DMK3) have VERY good high ISO performance. Heck, I'm still using a Canon 5DMK2 which doesn't have a native ISO 6400 and my shots STILL come out good.

Lastly: do some light painting to add interest. It's an AWESOME technique. Make sure to use an old-school, incandescent flashlight, because modern LED flashlights have a very cool and unpleasant cast to them.

HERE is an image I made using all the stuff I mentioned above.

I just got back from the southwest two days ago and have some more night shots coming down the pipeline. If you need more help, like I said, give me a call and I'll get you rocking and rolling.

Take care, brother.

-Kory



Nov 27, 2013 at 07:33 PM





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