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Sony A7r shutter vibration
  
 
snapsy
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


jcolwell wrote:
They will also respond to internal perturbations. Just sayin'.

hehe

jcolwell wrote:
I figure that the A7R without electronic first-curtain will be equivalent to using mirror lock up (MLU) on a DSLR that doesn't have electronic first-curtain. I'm OK with that.

The issue with MILCs without EFSCs is that you get vibration from two shutter movements vs just one for a DSLR - the 2nd curtain closing before the exposure starts, followed by the 1st curtain opening at the start of the exposure. A DSLR has only the latter. Both camera types have the final 2nd curtain movement but that occurs as the exposure is ending so the majority of its vibration will be resonating after the exposure is over.



Nov 24, 2013 at 08:44 PM
jcolwell
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


snapsy wrote:
Except none of those other elements you listed can generate vibrations without external perturbation, ...

jcolwell wrote:
They will also respond to internal perturbations. Just sayin'.


snapsy wrote:
hehe


jcolwell wrote:
I figure that the A7R without electronic first-curtain will be equivalent to using mirror lock up (MLU) on a DSLR that doesn't have electronic first-curtain. I'm OK with that.


snapsy wrote:
The issue with MILCs without EFSCs is that you get vibration from two shutter movements vs just one for a DSLR - the 2nd curtain closing before the exposure starts, followed by the 1st curtain opening at the start of the exposure. A DSLR has only the latter. Both camera types have the final 2nd curtain movement but that occurs as the exposure is ending so the majority of its vibration will be resonating after the exposure is over.


Good point. OTOH, I figure that the movement of a shutter in the "rear lens cap" on one of the TS-E, ZE, or M645 lenses that I plan to use the A7R with, will not have a big effect on IQ.



Nov 24, 2013 at 08:48 PM
r.gil
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


The point of having a camera with no mirror is to eliminate noise and vibration and the a7r is just as noisy as the big professional Canons and Nikons?
Is the a7 just as noisy as the a7r?



Nov 24, 2013 at 09:50 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


r.gil wrote:
The point of having a camera with no mirror is to eliminate noise and vibration and the a7r is just as noisy as the big professional Canons and Nikons?
Is the a7 just as noisy as the a7r?

The source of internal vibration can be the mirror, the shutter or both. From the videos I've seen, the A7 is just as loud, except that you will only hear one mechanical shutter curtain (2nd) if EFSC is enabled.

I would think vibration from the lack of EFSC could be an issue for those shooting with long lenses or with a microscope at low exposure times. Very long exposures (Low light landscape or astronomy) should not be affected by much since the minimal initial vibration gets averaged out for the remaining exposure time.

By comparison, Canon shooters have been spoiled by the complete elimination of internal vibration in live view mode. The Nikon D800 on the other hand, have the same A7R sensor and does not have electronic front shutter either. Landscape or Astro photographers are not complaining.



Nov 24, 2013 at 10:14 PM
Taylor Sherman
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


I'm not surprised they left out EFCS on the A7R.

I used to use it on my Nex-7, but then I started seeing the effects at 1/2000 and 1/4000 (half-frame vignette), and it was probably there at 1/1000 too. So, I just turned it off. It's too much of a pain to turn it off and on if I'm going to be using fast shutters or not.

When it comes to user experience, effectively communicating this sort of inconsistent behavior can be quite challenging. Also, cameras like these already overwhelm the user with information typically. Simply cutting the option seems like a reasonable decision to me.

Meanwhile, I wonder/hope that the A7's EFCS can actually work without uneven exposures all the way up to 1/8000?




Nov 24, 2013 at 10:19 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


The A7 Sony design team was interviewed and stated that "one of the hardest challenges was to add the 1/8.000 shutter in such a small body". Quoted from Sonyalpharumors:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/interview-with-sony-a7-a7r-developers-faster-lenses-are-in-development/

Given a larger and heavier DSLR body, there would seem to obviously be more design flexibility versus an extremely small body. In the larger body, there may be more room for a larger, more sophisticated shutter with more dampening technology built into the actual shutter mechanism. I think it's logical to also consider that a heavier body might act as dampening in itself.

I have no idea if there is more vibration with the A7r shutter versus a larger, heavier DSLR but it seems at least plausible that the A7r might have more vibration.



Nov 24, 2013 at 10:26 PM
uhoh7
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


carstenw wrote:
You mean, people aren't posting their spoiled images? Shocking.


So you believe this is happening, in addition to all your positive impressions of the camera?



Nov 24, 2013 at 10:34 PM
carstenw
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


uhoh7 wrote:
So you believe this is happening, in addition to all your positive impressions of the camera?


I don't know either way, how could I? It is plausible, but also unlikely. I choose not to guess.



Nov 24, 2013 at 10:45 PM
snapsy
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


uhoh7 wrote:
Since I'm seeing hundreds of lazer sharp handheld shots with all sorts of glass, at all sorts of speeds, I'd have to say this is a myth.

Don't blame the camera if you can't hold it still.


I don't know whether the A7R has an issue or not - I generally only trust my own tests and will know soon. But regarding hand-held shots, the D7000 had what I considered pretty significant mirror vibration (my test here) but it never showed up in my hand-held shots. That's likely because hand-held can't recreate the same acuity as a tripod for the range of affected shutter speeds.




Nov 24, 2013 at 11:01 PM
kezeka
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


r.gil wrote:
The point of having a camera with no mirror is to eliminate noise and vibration and the a7r is just as noisy as the big professional Canons and Nikons?
Is the a7 just as noisy as the a7r?


Thats funny, I was under the impression that removing the mirror was done to make the camera body smaller, lighter, and able to adapt to many different lenses due to the short flange distance.

My personal impression thus far is that not one person in this thread has posted conclusive evidence that this is an actual problem. The amount of speculation about "problems" with this camera is absurd considering how few people have actually used one at this point in time. I look forward to seeing tests run on the cameras, not run by people's fingers typing away aimlessly at home without an A7 or A7r in sight.



Nov 24, 2013 at 11:45 PM
 

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rscheffler
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


Fred Miranda wrote:
I would think vibration from the lack of EFSC could be an issue for those shooting with long lenses or with a microscope at low exposure times. Very long exposures (Low light landscape or astronomy) should not be affected by much since the minimal initial vibration gets averaged out for the remaining exposure time.


That was also my understanding - it averages out with long exposures. Jim Kasson addresses this somewhat (how long it takes for vibration to decay) using a D4 as an example in another blog post today...



Nov 24, 2013 at 11:49 PM
lostinjapan
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


r.gil wrote:
The point of having a camera with no mirror is to eliminate noise and vibration and the a7r is just as noisy as the big professional Canons and Nikons?
Is the a7 just as noisy as the a7r?


The A7r is quite a bit quieter than than my 5D3 or 5D2. It is probably about the same volume as the live view shutter sound of the 5d3, but the sound is very different. Also I think it is quieter than the silent shutter mode ond the 5d3. What some people are probably complaining about is the sound is completely different (at least to my ears) than any other shutter I have used. It is not a loud nor annoying sound, but just different.

Ryan



Nov 25, 2013 at 01:26 AM
jcolwell
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


lostinjapan wrote:
The A7r is quite a bit quieter than than my 5D3 or 5D2. It is probably about the same volume as the live view shutter sound of the 5d3, but the sound is very different. Also I think it is quieter than the silent shutter mode ond the 5d3. What some people are probably complaining about is the sound is completely different (at least to my ears) than any other shutter I have used. It is not a loud nor annoying sound, but just different.

Ryan


Interesting. "Different" often inspires fear, even when it's not warranted.



Nov 25, 2013 at 01:34 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


lostinjapan wrote:
The A7r is quite a bit quieter than than my 5D3 or 5D2. It is probably about the same volume as the live view shutter sound of the 5d3, but the sound is very different. Also I think it is quieter than the silent shutter mode ond the 5d3. What some people are probably complaining about is the sound is completely different (at least to my ears) than any other shutter I have used. It is not a loud nor annoying sound, but just different.

Ryan


Yet the A7r seems to actually measure as loud as a Canon 1D in single frame mode. I don't know how loud a 5D2 or 5D3 is but I kind of thought a 1D would be louder.

http://tobinators.com/blog/index.php/2013/11/everything-else/shutter-sound-comparison-sony-a7r-v-the-rest/



Nov 25, 2013 at 01:45 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Yet the A7r seems to actually measure as loud as a Canon 1D in single frame mode. I don't know how loud a 5D2 or 5D3 is but I kind of thought a 1D would be louder.

http://tobinators.com/blog/index.php/2013/11/everything-else/shutter-sound-comparison-sony-a7r-v-the-rest/


In "quiet" mode the 5D3 has the quietest shutter of any DSLR available today, plus it supports that mode for continuous shooting as well. If the A7R's shutter is as quiet as the 5D3 then most will be very pleased.



Nov 25, 2013 at 01:49 AM
jcolwell
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


snapsy wrote:
In "quiet" mode the 5D3 has the quietest shutter of any DSLR available today, plus it supports that mode for continuous shooting as well. If the A7R's shutter is as quiet as the 5D3 then most will be very pleased.


I believe the 6D is quieter, but I haven't compared them one-on-one.



Nov 25, 2013 at 05:31 AM
philip_pj
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


A7r shutter noise = RX1 poor IQ at infinity




Nov 25, 2013 at 07:20 AM
Jochenb
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


I do believe Herb, but it would be a non-issue for me.
When I only look at the right image (the one to show the shutter vibration) I still think "that looks sharp". It's only when I also start looking at the left image that I see that the right could have been sharper.



Nov 25, 2013 at 08:22 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


Here is a video comparing the shutter sound between the A7R, RX1, E-M5, and 1DM4:

Youtube Video



Nov 25, 2013 at 03:09 PM
Michael Gordon
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


melcat wrote:
I see it, e.g. inside the dark diagonal band.

This does remind me of the problems we used to have with the old OM film bodies. (Those were mosty mirror slap though.) Some people said the best tripod technique was not to use a remote shutter release, but to cup the top of the camera in your hands and press it directly.


Yes "wetwear" damping does work. The mirror slap is well damped but the aperture stop down is the culprit. The lenses are "normally open" with the spring tensions some lenses require quite a bit of force to stop down resulting in vibration in other lenses that don't require this amount of force. I believe Nykon designed them the opposite fashion so the force to stop down is just what is required. Aperture prefire/MLU in the self timer in the OM 4T eliminated that but stuck with the delay. Shot filled bean bag or wetwear damping are also OK solutions. More a problem with some situations than others obviously. Given all the reports/examples would bet there is some shutter shock issue with the A7R with some lenses--perhaps longer/lighter where the resonant freq is just so. I hope to use my OM lenses on an A7(r) once I see the alt group here says they work well but will use them on my OM bodies and Canon for now.



Nov 25, 2013 at 11:35 PM
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