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Canon hate?
  
 
asiafish
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p.8 #1 · p.8 #1 · Canon hate?


Deezie wrote:
It's a pretty big "so what" if you provide one keeper per 3000 images on a paid shoot.


My keeper rate is better than 1 per 3000, worse than 1 per 1. My point is that if one has the time for a 1 in 3000 hit rate and that 1 happens to be a masterpiece, then who cares about the 2999 deletes? Obviously if my hit rate were that bad I too would find another hobby, but since I don't do "paid shoots", if my hit rate is less than yours or whoever else's, its really not an issue.

What matters to me is that when I go out with my camera that perhaps I'll come home with something special on my film or card.



Nov 17, 2013 at 10:00 PM
tsdevine
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p.8 #2 · p.8 #2 · Canon hate?



Canon's sensors are definitely not bad...but they are getting a little long in the tooth in certain areas. Specifically base ISO DR...and maybe resolution. Both of those will affect a landscape shooter more than the average Joe though.

They definitely lead in other areas.

asiafish wrote:
Its funny as I did the research and eventually bought a 6D reading all of the complaints about Canon and their crappy AF, crappy sensors and what not. There were different complaints about Nikon, and different complaints still about Sony. When browsing images with each and handling them at a local store, with the exception of Sony and their EVF (which I liked, by the way) all of these cameras were far more alike than different.

For me the ultimate choice for the 6D came down to image samples (I like the color from the Canons more than the Nikons) and
...Show more



Nov 17, 2013 at 10:39 PM
David Baldwin
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p.8 #3 · p.8 #3 · Canon hate?


Most of the time the real difference between a pro and an amateur photographer is nothing to do with their kit, or whether they complain about it or not.

Often a pro is someone who can reliably come up with a good photograph in a given time under pressure. The amateur can often do much better because they can keep going back to the same scene again and again for years if necessary waiting for the perfect conditions.

The professional isn't necessarily a better artist (he might be) but on average he is better under time pressure.

You can no more tell whether a photographer is an artist from their kit than you can from their pro/amateur status. Or whether or not they bitch about the accuracy of their camera's AF.



Nov 17, 2013 at 10:41 PM
jcolwell
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p.8 #4 · p.8 #4 · Canon hate?


tsdevine wrote:
Canon's sensors are definitely not bad...but they are getting a little long in the tooth in certain areas. Specifically base ISO DR...and maybe resolution. Both of those will affect a landscape shooter more than the average Joe though.

They definitely lead in other areas.


What he said.



Nov 17, 2013 at 10:42 PM
asiafish
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p.8 #5 · p.8 #5 · Canon hate?


What influenced me most IQ-wise was color accuracy and feature-wise low-light AF (6D).


tsdevine wrote:
Canon's sensors are definitely not bad...but they are getting a little long in the tooth in certain areas. Specifically base ISO DR...and maybe resolution. Both of those will affect a landscape shooter more than the average Joe though.

They definitely lead in other areas.





Nov 17, 2013 at 11:32 PM
Paul Mo
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p.8 #6 · p.8 #6 · Canon hate?


jctriguy wrote:
So, while I agree that the amateur/professional distinction is not a great way to distinguish people in this context, there is certainly a distinction between good and great photographers. It is a lot more than experience and practice.

In the context of this current discussion, I think that the 'pros don't care about equipment' group might really be saying that the content and vision that goes into an image is more important than the gear that makes it.


You know the older I get the more I have seen. And people that I use to (almost) idolise I am now critical of. The great photographer - do they still exist? Has the golden age passed?

I think a great photographer is one who is able to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse - I once knew a photojournalist like that. You know when you're given an assignment and you walk into a dreadful, grey building filled with nothing beautiful? The better photog will come out with the better images - they figure it out.

If pros don't care about equipment why do they spend so much on it? And, if you don't hear them complaining - high profile phogs that is - could it be because it is a small world and they can't go around shitting in their own nest?



Nov 18, 2013 at 01:28 AM
Deezie
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p.8 #7 · p.8 #7 · Canon hate?


Paul Mo wrote: If pros don't care about equipment why do they spend so much on it? And, if you don't hear them complaining - high profile phogs that is - could it be because it is a small world and they can't go around shitting in their own nest?

We spend a lot of money because we need reliable gear that gives us the most options to ensure that the photographic assets we deliver to the client are of the highest standards. Canon, Nikon, Sony and Hasselblad offer superb cameras and lens options that suit many different shooting styles and with paying clients it's important to provide digital assets that suit their needs, in terms of output to both print and digital advertising environments.

A client most often comes to me with a very specific creative brief. The brief informs me about the lighting preferences, the location, wardrobe and a punchlist of specific setups they need. My job is to embrace their needs and give them what they want. I may not like what they're doing, but it's my job to fulfill their requests to the best of my ability. Yeah, sometimes it's just painting by numbers, but that's part of the job. Often times you will see commercial work that's not particularly inspiring and think that you could do a better job, not knowing that the photographer was just following orders and giving the client exactly what they needed.

I started shooting medium format film over 25 years ago and can really appreciate how far cameras have come in providing flexibility, ease of use, immediate review of the images and image quality. Cameras now are better than they've ever been.



Nov 18, 2013 at 03:50 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #8 · p.8 #8 · Canon hate?


Paul Mo wrote:
...could it be because it is a small world and they can't go around shitting in their own nest?


Indeed. Very true. :-)

Deezie wrote:
Cameras now are better than they've ever been.


Also true.



Nov 18, 2013 at 04:55 AM
thw2
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p.8 #9 · p.8 #9 · Canon hate?


Paul Mo wrote:
And, if you don't hear them complaining - high profile phogs that is - could it be because it is a small world and they can't go around shitting in their own nest?


True.

Some pros complained... incessantly... with dire consequences, especially when they could not prove themselves correct with 100% certainty. Case in point, Rob Galbraith.



Nov 18, 2013 at 06:50 AM
ggreene
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p.8 #10 · p.8 #10 · Canon hate?


thw2 wrote:
Some pros complained... incessantly... with dire consequences, especially when they could not prove themselves correct with 100% certainty. Case in point, Rob Galbraith.


And yet Canon recalled a large number of 1D3's for a hardware fix followed up by numerous firmware releases. It may not have affected everyone but there clearly was something wrong with a subset of them. Kudos to Galbraith for catching it. Isn't that what you want a reviewer to do?



Nov 18, 2013 at 01:42 PM
 

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Access
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p.8 #11 · p.8 #11 · Canon hate?


I'm still interested to hear:
Ratio of time spent using forums/online discussion versus time "in the field" (photography)?

The largest and most active photography club in my city, probably around 50 active members; this is my best estimation of photography. I think the composition in places like this, or forums in general, is very stilted. It's not the same at all, what people do, how they think, what they focus on, what's important to them, etc. There's not much in common.

I'm okay with it, I mean the forums are useful for some things, but I just don't feel 'in place' in a forum like this one, everything feels out of place or wrong to me.



Nov 18, 2013 at 02:47 PM
Paul Mo
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p.8 #12 · p.8 #12 · Canon hate?


Access wrote:
Ratio of time spent using forums/online discussion versus time "in the field" (photography)?


I couldn't say. What I can say is that I am pretty tired after three heavy days of shooting and childcare. Time spent here is time waiting for uploads or backups to complete.



Nov 18, 2013 at 03:09 PM
Gunzorro
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p.8 #13 · p.8 #13 · Canon hate?


asiafish wrote:
BS, plain and simple. The equipment matters to some extent, but there is no magic sauce that differentiates amateurs from pros, be it golf, photography or anything else. The difference is consistency and honestly just career choice. So what if I have to take 3,000 images to get one worthy of a gallery and a pro can do the same in 10 shots. Its that image that matters, not how long it took to get there.

And if that outstanding image was an accident of luck, so what? Some of the most significant discoveries have been the result of accident.


asiafish -- I agree with you to an extent, but I agree with Deezie more.

The reason is, as in many competition sports, when the clock is running (in this case having an agreed image(s) and a deadline) there is a motivation and strain that isn't present in self-assigned work, or work done strictly for pleasure.

I agree with Dan's concept expressed a few posts later, that the bulk of professional, once you have the necessary gear, is in the planning, logistics and communication -- and getting "the shot" regardless of obstacles and within the terms of the original agreement (unless re-negotiated).

I'm not demeaning personal or amateur work -- some of my favorite work has been of that type. But probably because of my personality, my best work has always being under the stress of an assignment. I tend to rise to the occasion when there is something on the line.


Edited on Nov 18, 2013 at 03:53 PM · View previous versions



Nov 18, 2013 at 03:10 PM
Paul Mo
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p.8 #14 · p.8 #14 · Canon hate?


Good points, Gunzorro.

What is on the line for me are my high expectations of myself.

I'd love to have a philanthropic sponsor so I could be free to travel and shoot when and where I wanted.

That'd be nirvana.



Nov 18, 2013 at 03:14 PM
Gunzorro
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p.8 #15 · p.8 #15 · Canon hate?


tsdevine wrote:
No arguments Dan....the generalizations in the earlier thread just got me riled up. I've been pretty happy in the 25 years of being a Canon customer. And generally they've taken care of people when there have been issues.

There's one area that I've complained about...because I'd like to see Canon improve.

My main point was to generalize like I started seeing in other posts....like generally amateurs don't have talent, pros never complain, etc. Nothing is ever black and white. While we can argue about the finer points on when someone has the right to complain about something, and when they don't.....there is
...Show more

Tim -- Something else to consider in this distinction between pro/am, and complaining or not, is that most pros have extensive experience with their gear and most have extensive training (even if self-taught) and continual updates on new technology, while the highest percentage of amateurs are continually hitting the limit of their photographic knowledge and trying to push past it if they are working to improve their skills. As such, the pros have often already "paid their dues" and shed their tears earlier, and the newer photographers are still working through their learning curve aggravations. I'm talking the larger percentages here, not the individuals -- there will be very experienced pros that are champion bitchers and naysayers, and there will be newbies that absorb new technology like a happy sponge.



Nov 18, 2013 at 03:28 PM
thw2
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p.8 #16 · p.8 #16 · Canon hate?


ggreene wrote:
And yet Canon recalled a large number of 1D3's for a hardware fix followed up by numerous firmware releases. It may not have affected everyone but there clearly was something wrong with a subset of them. Kudos to Galbraith for catching it. Isn't that what you want a reviewer to do?


Sure, from the start all the way to the point when Canon stepped in to resolve the issue, he did a great job. I'm sure many folks are grateful for that. The sad part is Galbraith became overly obssessed and there was no end to his complaints after the 1D3 saga. He just went on and on and on dismissing every Canon product... and finally had to quit his job.



Nov 18, 2013 at 04:22 PM
chez
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p.8 #17 · p.8 #17 · Canon hate?


thw2 wrote:
Sure, from the start all the way to the point when Canon stepped in to resolve the issue, he did a great job. I'm sure many folks are grateful for that. The sad part is Galbraith became overly obssessed and there was no end to his complaints after the 1D3 saga. He just went on and on and on dismissing every Canon product... and finally had to quit his job.


I'm not sure you have all the facts straight about Rob and his new job. Where is it stated he was forced to quit his job and take on a teaching position? Unless you know this as fact, maybe you should not be broadcasting such stories.



Nov 18, 2013 at 04:46 PM
MintMar
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p.8 #18 · p.8 #18 · Canon hate?


David Baldwin wrote:
Most of the time the real difference between a pro and an amateur photographer is nothing to do with their kit, or whether they complain about it or not.

Often a pro is someone who can reliably come up with a good photograph in a given time under pressure. The amateur can often do much better because they can keep going back to the same scene again and again for years if necessary waiting for the perfect conditions.


No, not really... Granted, if you're amateur and you check the perfect lighting to shoot the cliff nearby, then perhaps. I bet many amateurs shoot some fast pacing event (e.g. dancing exhibition, or battle reenactment or THE football match of their child) where they cannot redo the same scene or the event again and again...

This is why I was pretty sour regarding old digital Canon's AF policy. They gave the amateurs only mediocre AF systems and reserved the 45pt AF for 1D line. The performance and feature gap was huge. Of course, not everyone needed fast AF, but everyone who needed fast AF, had to buy 1D because there was no EOS-3 digital.

In today's AF world, with people more dependent on AF (less than ideal stock screens, AF lenses with short focus travel rings), I felt that AF was too crucial to be spread so unevenly across the camera classes: if shutters were designed as the AF systems of the old Canon, the 1D would get 1/8000 max, 5D and xxD would get 1/500 and digital rebels would get 1/250 maximum shutter speed. Not quite usable, is it? But maybe Canon would sell more 1D cameras to amateurs, and ND filters to Rebel users

Now, thanks to Nikonians (their D300/700 cameras and general Sony sensor advancement), Canon was forced screaming and kicking into equipping lower class cameras with better AF systems (although I do see 7D AF as a very advanced 40/50D AF system), I've quite lost my Canon "hate", if it could be described as such.



Nov 18, 2013 at 05:49 PM
Lasse Eriksson
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p.8 #19 · p.8 #19 · Canon hate?


MintMar wrote:
No, not really... Granted, if you're amateur and you check the perfect lighting to shoot the cliff nearby, then perhaps. I bet many amateurs shoot some fast pacing event (e.g. dancing exhibition, or battle reenactment or THE football match of their child) where they cannot redo the same scene or the event again and again...

This is why I was pretty sour regarding old digital Canon's AF policy. They gave the amateurs only mediocre AF systems and reserved the 45pt AF for 1D line. The performance and feature gap was huge. Of course, not everyone needed fast AF, but everyone
...Show more


If you are an Pro or Amateur have nothing to do with if you are using the 1D cameras or the less expensive cameras



Nov 18, 2013 at 06:02 PM
jctriguy
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p.8 #20 · p.8 #20 · Canon hate?


MintMar wrote:
No, not really... Granted, if you're amateur and you check the perfect lighting to shoot the cliff nearby, then perhaps. I bet many amateurs shoot some fast pacing event (e.g. dancing exhibition, or battle reenactment or THE football match of their child) where they cannot redo the same scene or the event again and again...


Of course sports is a totally different story, don't think anyone would argue that point. But, it is often the case that amateurs can go to the same local spot countless times and eventually get the amazing lighting and elements in a landscape shot.



Nov 18, 2013 at 06:05 PM
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