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Canon hate?
  
 
deepbluejh
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p.1 #1 · Canon hate?


I came over to Fred Miranda forums in 2005 (to buy a 1DII for $3000, but that's another story). At the time I had been on DP Review and was getting most of my photo information from that forum. Over the years I drifted away from DP Review and spent nearly all of my photo forum time over here instead.

Put bluntly, I don't really care for the crowd over there. It's nothing personal against anybody there, I just feel like the mindset there isn't what I'd like to be around on a daily basis.

Now with that said... anyone who has wandered over there in the past couple years surely has noticed the intense, vitriolic hatred directed at the Canon brand. The rise of Sony, Fuji, and Olympus of late has only intensified this sentiment.

There is this segment of the population that seems to live and die by camera specifications. Whiz-bang features (useful or not doesn't seem to matter), megapixels, ISO ranges, different form factors are all the name of the game. What we currently have is almost irrelevant. The only thing that people are focused on is what we might have just around the corner and what our current gear does not have. It's a near obsession with gadgetry and the associated specifications that has many people darn near foaming at the mouth with anticipation and/or brand rage.

I'm sure this exists to various degrees in nearly every camera forum, but the mindset is especially potent over at DP Review. The intensity of hatred directed at Canon (and to a lesser extent, Nikon) is just really surprising to me. My theory is that people resent the fact that these two traditional SLR brands are still "on top" of the professional photography market while seeming to innovate little relative to other up-and-comers. They just can't understand why anyone would buy some ancient dinosaur 5DII DSLR when the latest mirrorless offering looks so much better on paper.

Thoughts on this?



Nov 15, 2013 at 04:20 PM
Chris Fawkes
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p.1 #2 · Canon hate?


If only Canon had listened to these haters they might not now be on the brink of financial ruin.

Oh wait...



Nov 15, 2013 at 04:32 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #3 · Canon hate?


I think it's because it's far easier for many people to be negative and hostile, than to be positive and supportive. I try to not get drawn into the argument by responding to patently false and inflammatory comments, but I'm not always successful.

Good luck with this thread.



Nov 15, 2013 at 04:39 PM
onegreatcity
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p.1 #4 · Canon hate?


This is one of the great truths of the internet, some people love having a stage from which to vent. I don't think you'll have much success reaching those who fixate on what's wrong or what could be better. Gear forums in general (electronics, cameras, RVs, autos, computers, etc) will always attract those experiencing problems or shortfalls related to expectations. Most concerns are real and immediate, others imagined and speculative.

Here at FM I find the 'trouble threads' predictable and easy to avoid; instead I wander into the photography threads and peruse beautiful wildlife, macro, landscape and people images. It clears my head and reminds me why I pick up my camera in the first place.




Nov 15, 2013 at 04:41 PM
whtrbt7
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p.1 #5 · Canon hate?


I noticed that too. Before joining this forum, I checked out DPReview and also POTN. The sentiment on DPReview seems to be that Canon is slacking in the R&D department since not much revolutionary consumer gear has been released by them. Canon I think really wants to be a professional gear supplier and it shows with their new video-centric view with their lenses and even 3rd party gear designed for such purposes. I don't think they have actually slacked off much in terms of their photographic gear because the 5D3 and 1DX were pretty good for professional usage when they were released. They are an easy target for DPReview people as well since their equipment is still pretty expensive and they aren't trying to push lenses instead of sensors. DSLRS aren't for everyone but there does seem to be a push towards getting excellent IQ out of the smallest package possible. Couple that with the whole consumer megapickle brainwashing and you've got a very explosive consumer group that wants to bash Canon due to their standpoint on pro photography and videography.

When I think of the top brands in professional digital imaging, it comes down to Canon, Sony, and Nikon in terms of sales. There are companies that try to push the envelope in certain directions such as RED, Leica, and Blackmagic. The 5DII is still a terrific camera after so much time and it's not just because of the sensor, it's everything else that it does right that makes it so resilient to changes in time. That said, consumers have cheaper FF options nowadays with the new Sony FF mirror less cameras, Nikon D610, Canon 6D, and used FF cameras of the past. There is more choice than ever. There is a reason why the top in digital imaging is still the top and it's not due to just a single factor.

When I was comparing different systems to purchase for my business I looked at Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Leica first. The Canons just made more sense to me due to CPS, fast primes, pretty decent camera bodies/ weather sealing, usability/functionality, and overall expense. I had used a lot of Sony gear in the past and their policy has always been "If it doesn't work, just buy a new one from us". Nikon looked great at the time since the D800 had just come out and the file sizes were huge. From a high volume standpoint, it's more expensive to keep files for the D800 compared to the 20-24MP range which is a good blend of quality/cost efficiency for me. Nikon's glass is also more expensive, more confusing to me, and had better build quality. All of these things might have been great for a consumer but for a daily workhorse, I needed things to be slightly cheaper and more serviceable. Leica was super expensive and has the glass quality to boot but MF and completely manual shooting doesn't make for enough of a workhorse so as much as I wanted one, I couldn't justify it on an expense account.

Different strokes for different folks. I still love my iPhone camera just because it comes with me everywhere. It's not that I can't make a business with iPhone cameras but it's a different business model completely. Specs aren't everything, it's the end result that counts and how you get there. Some people just don't see the entire picture.



Nov 15, 2013 at 04:47 PM
garydavidjones
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p.1 #6 · Canon hate?


You're right on. There exists among some photographers an obsessive cult-like fixation

with new technology that in my opinion is irrational. No EVF, for example, equals OVF.

Laws of optics cannot be discarded cavalierly when comparing full-size lenses for full-frame

cameras with all the midget lenses that most mirrorless cameras use. Using the 5D3 with

fast glass I get photos of action in dark venues that no one else does on tours and

cruises. The mirrorless fanatics miss the boat.



Nov 15, 2013 at 04:48 PM
GoGo
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p.1 #7 · Canon hate?


Just like everything else in life there are those that talk about it and those that do it.


Nov 15, 2013 at 04:54 PM
mttran
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p.1 #8 · Canon hate?


I view this in different way. It is a big mess exchange between the complainer and defender in the way of their communication which has little to do with manufacture. Under power tool is an inconvenient but not a real "HATE" problem, Canon in this case.

Edited on Nov 15, 2013 at 05:22 PM · View previous versions



Nov 15, 2013 at 04:54 PM
David Baldwin
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p.1 #9 · Canon hate?


I suspect that alot of vitriol comes from those who bought the 5D2 expecting 5D3 AF performance. Sort of feeling that AF capability was held back so that they would have to splash out again in three years. Fair or not I suspect this is a big issue under the surface.

Also the history of digital cameras is one of constant innovation which is slowing down dramatically, many of us are having to reset our minds to expect real improvements every five years instead of the old 18 months. Certainly it is galling to see how good the Sony sensors are. At least we can use excellent Canon glass on Sony bodies now.

I suspect many DSLR users feel that other manufacturers are starting to offer more, or for less.



Nov 15, 2013 at 05:05 PM
deepbluejh
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p.1 #10 · Canon hate?


David Baldwin wrote:
Also the history of digital cameras is one of constant innovation which is slowing down dramatically, many of us are having to reset our minds to expect real improvements every five years instead of the old 18 months. Certainly it is galling to see how good the Sony sensors are. At least we can use excellent Canon glass on Sony bodies now.


I feel about the same way.



Nov 15, 2013 at 05:19 PM
 

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Shield
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p.1 #11 · Canon hate?


deepbluejh wrote:
I came over to Fred Miranda forums in 2005 (to buy a 1DII for $3000, but that's another story). At the time I had been on DP Review and was getting most of my photo information from that forum. Over the years I drifted away from DP Review and spent nearly all of my photo forum time over here instead.

Put bluntly, I don't really care for the crowd over there. It's nothing personal against anybody there, I just feel like the mindset there isn't what I'd like to be around on a daily basis.



I'll admit a couple of years ago I too was in this camp - I was a Sony DLSR shooter and didn't like Canon, if anything because I rooted for the underdog. I had owned Rebels in the past but thought the Sony product was superior.
In about a year and a half I went from NEX-5n, NEX-7, A57, A77, A99. I was never completely happy with the lenses I use the most (70-200) nor the video quality. Didn't realize what I was missing with an OVF either as it'd been years since I used a much smaller one on the Rebels.
I bought a 5d3 in Nov 2012, and in 12 months I haven't even thought of replacing it. My good buddy who shoots Canon has been saying "told ya so" ever since.
Canon's great....



Nov 15, 2013 at 06:09 PM
John_T
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p.1 #12 · Canon hate?


...but you see, people Own things today. The things they Own are a statement as to Who They Are, whether they can use them with any skill is totally irrelevant. They Own them, and since they identify with them as a statement as to Who The Are, they will defend What They Own to the death, no matter how obscure or ridiculous the argument. Some of the most Gawd-awful drivers I have ever seen drive some fancy cars.

Then come the Standard Bearers who identify with and wave the flag for that which they proclaim to be the best, or conversely what cleverly will Do The Job, thereby establishing their cleverness. Mind you, they rarely Own more than the keyboard they spout their collection out of The Internet and are most likely sub-18.

Arguing with Owners and Standard Bearers is a complete waste of time and a sterile exorcize in futility.

Edited on Nov 15, 2013 at 06:21 PM · View previous versions



Nov 15, 2013 at 06:16 PM
Karl Witt
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p.1 #13 · Canon hate?


It is evident to those experienced that know that it is a good photographer that makes a great photograph. I doubt to the highest degree that anyone owns something that they didn't and don't want to own..............How could anyone be unhappy with all the great choices that are out there??

What's in print and on paper and shown as statistics on a piece of gear is only one side of a balanced triangle of needs for any one photographer. If there were one camera out there that did it all, everyone would have it..............until the next one came along and bettered it which is exactly what goes on as technology allows us.

Why bother to 'hate' anything.............move on and get what makes you happy (or what you think makes you happy ) it's always your choice!

Karl

Edited on Nov 15, 2013 at 06:33 PM · View previous versions



Nov 15, 2013 at 06:20 PM
StillFingerz
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p.1 #14 · Canon hate?


It seems at times that the outstretched open hand has been replaced by one held high with middle finger raised, or a fist with arms folded. Ready for a fight to the 'internet forum death'; the admin revoking/suspending membership. Real debate, discussion, civility is often suspended in preference of endless hollow prose defined by 'What have your done for me lately?'

Companies like Canon, Microsoft, Kraft Foods, GM, etc. design for the masses, not the individual and there will never be the perfect product for each person. But many the individual have decided to suspend reality, are of the mindset that only their needs 'must' be served and nothing less is acceptable; compromise no longer tolerable.

Words are easy things, thought, researched 'actual' fact another beast, most innerwebers aren't interested in the latter, and history either evades or is not interested in, only the current moment matters.

Not a breath had nor relaxed moment allowed, innovation is easy, design is simple, how dare Canon rest, leverage and exploit it's efforts...at my expense, my needs...how dare they, it's only demonstrates there lack of business skills, planning...

And for those that are patient, are willing and passionate about exploiting product in hand, remain loyal to said product because it actually worked, was pleasurable to use, even exciting, enlightening, opened up new experience; thinking, feeling, creative moments...well their just fanboys, they don't get it...

Passion knows no bounds, each contributes to this community at whatever level they can, and profiles are revealed even if their profile is blank

I really need to shoot something, this bed rest is getting old...

Edited on Nov 15, 2013 at 06:32 PM · View previous versions



Nov 15, 2013 at 06:24 PM
kwhaley29
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p.1 #15 · Canon hate?


Whenever I come across someone complaining about this or that piece of gear and how it wasn't specifically designed to meet their individual needs, I'm tempted to tell them that perhaps it's time to take a break from the Interwebs for a while and get a new perspective on life.


Nov 15, 2013 at 06:29 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #16 · Canon hate?


I do photography for quite some time now - starting with film and moving do my first Canon DSLR in 2005. I have mostly used Pentax, Voigtlander, Sony, and Canon cameras. In 2009 I decided to build up upon Canon gear after the 5D MkII was released which was rightfully a great success story for Canon regarding the sensor. Even I like my Canon lenses, I don't feel any brand association at all. For me Canon is simply a company which makes business. I am simply a consumer.

When I came across FM in 2007, there was more a general understanding about Canon camera and gear performance, only that some groups later (rightfully) complained about 5D MKII's AF or problems with the 1Ds MkIII. There was not a lot of criticism against Canon. We all know what happened years later when the 5d MkIII, 1Dx, and 6D were released in the (semi-)professional segment in parallel to advancing competition especially in the FF segment. Criticism turned louder. And I can fully understand it, and admit that I openly criticize(d) Canon for its lack of innovation and standstill especially in regard to sensor technology. Canon started diversifying itself from other camera manufacturers by focusing on video applications. I am still not sure how profitable this segment alone is for Canon, but they must find it profitable enough to release a bunch of lenses suited for video and also increasing the video performance in many camera systems. Some might like this, others don't. Still many are waiting and wonder if and when Canon is finally trying to compete with a new FF sensor.

People started raving more against Canon's lack of new innovative camera products when Sony suddenly released the A7(R) series recently which opens now an opportunity to people well-vested into Canon lenses to use them with this mirrorless camera and adapter.

This is now just from a very limited circle of my photo friends - but two of them sold in the last couple of months all their Canon lenses but one or two to be ready to switch brands soon. I can't say from this personal experience that this happens now very often in general, but the reason I was told was always the same: discontent with the way Canon is currently going in their FF camera developments for photographers. It seems like Canon delivers still decent gear for one group of DSLR and video users (event/wedding/photojournalism/wildlife) but leaves alone some other part of mainly fine art, landscape, and architecture photographers who simply don't need fast fps, and other electronic bells and whistles. Those are the ones which are getting louder now in this forum also.

Even the lack of innovation in some areas is obvious, there is - as expected as in any brand-related forum - a group of fanboys who are defensive of Canon in any possible way. There are many reasons for this behavior ranging from psychology to simply Canon gear sale/reselling-related reasons.

I think it is great that people are critical and express their opinions. Canon makes many good things. But it lacks now severely in other areas. And I believe it is right to mention where improvements should be done.



Nov 15, 2013 at 06:31 PM
Joe Garner
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p.1 #17 · Canon hate?


I'm not sure it's gotten worse in that sense. I've been a member of DPR almost since its inception and I remember that Nikon/Canon fights used to be absolutely rabid. You hardly see that anymore. What I do see is knowledgeable photographers drifting away to specialized sites and DPR becoming dilettante playground.


Nov 15, 2013 at 06:33 PM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #18 · Canon hate?


They either can or can't improve their products in larger steps than they currently are.

Which one (can or can't)? We simply do not know - and that's where frustration and speculation comes into play.

We think they can improve their sensors - but can they?

We think they should be doing better QC and pre-release testing - so why don't they?

We think they are charging too much - but are they?

We think they should now release a gold Kiss - but will they?

The gulf between Canon's actions and our real-world experiences with their gear seems vast.

Nikon, et al, suffer mocking, but Canon will be heartened by the fact we loathe them - it shows they are at the top of their game.



Nov 15, 2013 at 07:14 PM
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p.1 #19 · Canon hate?


I think people are living in the past.

1) What percentage of the time do people spend in the forums versus in the field?
ie. do you spend 10 hours in the field for every 1 hour in the forum (10:1)? 5:1? 1:1? Worse?

2) DSLR or digital camera in general is now a mature industry. It is no longer the earlier era (2003-2008?) where developments or advances came at a rapid rate. It could be better compared to the personal computer industry of today, continuing to evolve, but the overall rate of advancement has slowed from five years ago.

3) I don't see any real drift or abandonment of Canon in the real world. Even in the virtual world, of online forums, social media, etc. I only see the controversy in the forums. In the newer social media, there isn't much, people spend a lot more time talking about photos and less about where they came from.

4) The ultimate assessment of an industry is not what the 'old guard' thinks, it's what the newer entries into the marketplace are buying and using. Canon is doing just fine in this respect.

4a) What you have on forums is mostly old guard. There aren't many new users here, or when one does show up, they rarely stick around long. They might show up, ask a few questions from time to time, and then move on. Most forums develop their own thing that isn't very friendly or helpful to newcomers (who generally prefer newer social media anyways).

5) The truth of the performance today is that the pinnacle has already been reached, a new photographer can use a camera from 5 years ago and it will suit them for their needs just fine. Many new entries into the photography hobby/field recognize this, that advancement or development isn't the driver that it used to be.



Nov 15, 2013 at 07:36 PM
artd
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p.1 #20 · Canon hate?


I haven't been to DPR forums in a long time. But I don't think the "Canon hate" threads are any better or worse than those of other brands. The proportion of hate threads might be greater for Canon or Nikon but I would estimate that is in proportion to their greater market share. More people own those brands, more people talk about them, both positive and negative. To put it differently, you may think there are more "Canon haters" out there, but there are also more "Canon fanboys" too than those of other brands.

But again, it's not unique to Canon. My first DSLR was Pentax, and I recall spending some time on the DPR forums way back, and folks there would constantly be trashing Pentax, pontificating on what they should or shouldn't be doing, why their camera releases were terrible, and, of course, that they were doomed. And having recently glanced at a number of comments in the postings on the sonyalpharumors site, there are plenty of people there bashing Sony, saying how they are doomed, why they are making poor business choices, etc. (You should've seen the Sony hate when the first sketches of the A7 design were released!)




Nov 15, 2013 at 07:52 PM
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