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Printer profiling advice experience.
  
 
ben egbert
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p.2 #1 · Printer profiling advice experience.


I started from scratch with the soft profile on. I got a usable image this way although it prints a bit darker than it appears on screen. The colors are much better and it is not muddy looking.

What I really dislike is the huge disconnect between the print specific image and the way it displays without the soft profile enabled. It is harsh and appears grossly contrasty.

I typically process a good image several times and have it as wallpaper for a while getting used to it before I print it. But if I can't see what the print looks like prior to printing, and if I can't show my print specific image on line, its a real bummer.

Here is an example or what I had to do to get close to what I see on screen without soft profile.





processed with soft profile enabled.




Nov 11, 2013 at 03:24 PM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #2 · Printer profiling advice experience.


Unfortunately, showing this image doesn't really tell very much without seeing the original. It may only be telling us that your original profile isn't all that great and this is what you've got to do to compensate for it.


Nov 11, 2013 at 04:04 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #3 · Printer profiling advice experience.


The profile is not getting me close to the monitor. Look at the original of a similar shot in my opening post. Not the same image but the same scene. The print from this soft profile version is close to what you see in that first version.

I think the profile is pretty bad. I am wondering if I have a setting screwed up in Qimage.



Nov 11, 2013 at 04:31 PM
hugowolf
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p.2 #4 · Printer profiling advice experience.


ben egbert wrote:
... I am wondering if I have a setting screwed up in Qimage.


It seems doubtful, given that some of your prints are coming out fine. Unless you have changed something - have you tried a small print of one of the ones that was ok, just to make sure that your settings haven't changed?

Brian A



Nov 11, 2013 at 07:02 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #5 · Printer profiling advice experience.


hugowolf wrote:
It seems doubtful, given that some of your prints are coming out fine. Unless you have changed something - have you tried a small print of one of the ones that was ok, just to make sure that your settings haven't changed?

Brian A


Here is what I did. In Qimage, I had perceptual and did not check black point. I changed this to relative with black point checked. I got a nice print from one that was normally processed. A bit darker than the screen, but about like I expected. I think checking black point made the difference.

In Photoshop, I also had soft proof set as relative and black point with simulate paper color. If I turn off simulate paper color I get a pretty good match to the print, if I turn it on, the soft proof gets dull and flat looking.

The soft proof is still slightly duller than the normal screen but I am now in the ball park.

This printing complexity makes me want to find another hobby.





Nov 11, 2013 at 07:34 PM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #6 · Printer profiling advice experience.


Ben - What you're saying makes sense. Perceptual automatically does the black point compensation while Relative you have to actually make the choice. Just to be clear, what that does when checked is to move the 0,0,0 black point (if you had that) in the source file to the point in the paper profile below which you lose all detail. So, a 0,0,0 black in your RGB working space might become, for instance, 0,11,11 for Hahn308 on my Epson 9900 using Relative. That's why checking BPC make the preview go lighter - it's actually moving the numbers up the scale.

The paper white simulation is the hardest to get right in the profile. How accurate it is depends on the profile software and, more importantly, the quality of the spectrophotometer, and because we humans are much much more sensitive to the slightest change in white illumination and color of white, it's very hard for consumer level instruments to be accurate enough. Black point simulation is not usually an issue as there have to be relatively major color shifts just for us to notice.

Hang in there. You'll get the hang of it and you will enjoy it. You just need to understand there is never a one paper fits every image approach that will make you happy.



Nov 11, 2013 at 09:19 PM
hugowolf
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p.2 #7 · Printer profiling advice experience.


What Peter said, and…

In most images there shouldn’t be that much difference between using relative colorimetric and perceptual. Some people actually prefer the slightly compressed gamut of perceptually rendered prints: pleasing vs accuracy. And the perceptual intent of one profiling kit can vary from that of another – the building of the perceptual tables in a profile is very much a black art.

I haven’t used QImage for a few years. Lightroom did much of what I wanted, and ridding my workflow of another step seemed useful. But one of things that QImage did, if I remember correctly, was that it allowed you to use different rendering intents and/or profiles on a print run. So you could hard proof the same image using different profiles and rendering intents on the same sheet. (I found it useful to mirror one of the images when doing comparisons on the same sheet – metamerism tends to obscure objectivity otherwise.)

As Peter says, I don’t think you can expect one paper to work for all images.

Brian A



Nov 12, 2013 at 02:28 AM
ben egbert
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p.2 #8 · Printer profiling advice experience.


hugowolf wrote:
What Peter said, and…

In most images there shouldn’t be that much difference between using relative colorimetric and perceptual. Some people actually prefer the slightly compressed gamut of perceptually rendered prints: pleasing vs accuracy. And the perceptual intent of one profiling kit can vary from that of another – the building of the perceptual tables in a profile is very much a black art.

I haven’t used QImage for a few years. Lightroom did much of what I wanted, and ridding my workflow of another step seemed useful. But one of things that QImage did, if I remember correctly, was that it
...Show more

So why did going to relative and setting black point make so much difference?

I like Qimage because I am a guy who prefers formulas and hates tweaking. I sit it up and get the settings I like and just ignore them. Guess I missed this part of the set up. I think it was the default and it seemed to work.

Mirroring sounds like a good idea. I will check into changing profiles on one sheet, never tried that. Just about out of 8.5x11 Hahn, might be time to try Cancen. Got a lot of 24x36 left. I also have a new blade coming for my Carl cutter, but the guy at Carl sort of admitted I may be expecting too much.



Nov 12, 2013 at 02:57 AM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #9 · Printer profiling advice experience.


Ben - I'd like to know if printing through Ps gives you the exact same results as Q-Image. It should, but maybe there's something going on that we don't know about. Try printing one of your trouble images with Ps, using Ps Manages Color while choosing your profile in the pulldown - and print it both with Relative w/bpc and Perceptual.

One of the reasons I want to try making a profile for you is that I have great instrumentation and software and we can try two or three different versions of i1Profiler's perceptual settings. A lot of this is finding the right combination that works for you, your images, and your display ambience. It's worth spending a bit more paper and ink up front to streamline your process for the future.



Nov 12, 2013 at 03:16 AM
 

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hugowolf
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p.2 #10 · Printer profiling advice experience.


ben egbert wrote:
... Just about out of 8.5x11 Hahn, might be time to try Cancen. Got a lot of 24x36 left. I also have a new blade coming for my Carl cutter, but the guy at Carl sort of admitted I may be expecting too much.


You can get eight 8.5 x 11 inch sheets from a 24 x 36 inch sheet, with very little waste. And it may cost less than buying precut US letter size.

[Edit: Just quickly looking one supplier, buying a 25 sheet pack of US letter Rag 308 is 54% more expensive that cuting down from 24 x 36 inch sheets. And the Arch D sheet have free shipping, the US Letter don't]

[Rotatrim Mastercut M54, I wouldn't know how to change a rotary blade and I am hoping it stays that way, but it will not cut 4 ply mat.]

Brian A



Nov 12, 2013 at 05:10 AM
ben egbert
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p.2 #11 · Printer profiling advice experience.


Peter Figen wrote:
Ben - I'd like to know if printing through Ps gives you the exact same results as Q-Image. It should, but maybe there's something going on that we don't know about. Try printing one of your trouble images with Ps, using Ps Manages Color while choosing your profile in the pulldown - and print it both with Relative w/bpc and Perceptual.

One of the reasons I want to try making a profile for you is that I have great instrumentation and software and we can try two or three different versions of i1Profiler's perceptual settings. A lot of this is
...Show more


I will need to break out a manual to figure out how to print from Photoshop. I think I have an old Kelty book that has a couple chapters on it. I think Photoshop hired the same guys who wrote the IRS tax manual to write the printer interface.

But I will do it. And thanks for your kind and generous offer, much appreciated.

Qimage allows me to turn off profile management and allow printer drivers to manage the print. It is already set to no color management.

Edited on Nov 12, 2013 at 05:05 PM · View previous versions



Nov 12, 2013 at 03:29 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #12 · Printer profiling advice experience.


hugowolf wrote:
You can get eight 8.5 x 11 inch sheets from a 24 x 36 inch sheet, with very little waste. And it may cost less than buying precut US letter size.

[Edit: Just quickly looking one supplier, buying a 25 sheet pack of US letter Rag 308 is 54% more expensive that cuting down from 24 x 36 inch sheets. And the Arch D sheet have free shipping, the US Letter don't]

[Rotatrim Mastercut M54, I wouldn't know how to change a rotary blade and I am hoping it stays that way, but it will not cut 4 ply mat.]

Brian A



I have already had the blade out, not too hard for a retired mechanical engineer, but I am not so hot at software. You need to be a programmer to print.

I can cut up some 8,5x11 sheets, but they have to be absolutely perfect to feed in my printer. My cutter does cut print paper just fine. I used to but mats precut to outer size and that works fine for the top mat but not so hot for teh bottom mat which needs to be a bit smaller.




Nov 12, 2013 at 03:32 PM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #13 · Printer profiling advice experience.


I don't know for a fact that Q-Image is actually okay for printing profiling targets. The No Color Adjustment may or may not work correctly and rather than take a chance, I just prefer to print the targets using the Adobe Color Printer Utility. Adobe finally just deactivated the NCA options in the last couple of versions. Both Ps and QI print fine when printing normally though. You're right. It's all way too complicated and far too many places to screw it up.


Nov 12, 2013 at 07:02 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #14 · Printer profiling advice experience.


In Qimage, "no color management" is the default. In addition, I can check "let printer manage color". If I set the image at original size, it prints 12.20x29.77 at 150ppi. I had to fix it in ACR, the original was 300ppi.

When I save in ACR, it attaches a profile but I think that is stripped out with the Qimage settings.

The Adobe application does not seem to be designed for Win-7. It has no option for choosing the printer or creating custom sizes. The largest size embedded is 17x22.

Edit:

I don't trust Qimage it does not seem to know what the original size is and alternately shows a very small 8x something or larger size. I will try deleting and reloading the Adobe App and maybe look for a Win-7 version.

Edit 2.

Ok, I figured out the app. You cant set printer or size until you initiate print. I was looking for it in the print set-up box. Once you start a print job, you have the option to set these things.

Looks like I need to cut a large sheet of paper and print it.



Nov 15, 2013 at 03:54 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #15 · Printer profiling advice experience.


Follow Up.

Peter Figen generously made me a custom profile for my printer and Hahn 308. I received it and have tested it. The profile is very similar to the Hahn supplied profile which tells me both are probably very accurate. Peters is slightly brighter which is a good thing.

It appears that the big improvement I have found as a result of this thread is to check the black point box. I also learned a bunch of new things about printing and selecting the many variables required when setting up a print job. I hope some will stick in my memory.

My prints are still darker than my monitor, but the colors seem spot on to me and the washed out look is gone so long as I check the black point box.



Nov 28, 2013 at 04:27 PM
msoomro
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p.2 #16 · Printer profiling advice experience.


Tag for ref.


Nov 28, 2013 at 06:09 PM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #17 · Printer profiling advice experience.


Ben - I'm still going to re-read your targets with the Polarizing filter over the spectro to see what that does to the shadows. That won't happen to next week. Besides I'm in the middle of what looks like needing a new print head on my 9900. Ouch.

That Black Point Compensation option is critical when printing Relative Colorimetric. If you don't check it, you crush the hell out of your blacks. You don't need to check it in Perceptual as it happens automatically but also in a slightly different manner - if you read what happens to the numbers doing a convert to profile. Now that I think about it, BPC is sort of like a Perceptual rendering for the very very bottom of the tonal range. Hmmm.



Nov 28, 2013 at 08:24 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #18 · Printer profiling advice experience.


Peter Figen wrote:
Ben - I'm still going to re-read your targets with the Polarizing filter over the spectro to see what that does to the shadows. That won't happen to next week. Besides I'm in the middle of what looks like needing a new print head on my 9900. Ouch.

That Black Point Compensation option is critical when printing Relative Colorimetric. If you don't check it, you crush the hell out of your blacks. You don't need to check it in Perceptual as it happens automatically but also in a slightly different manner - if you read what happens to the numbers
...Show more


I won't do any large prints until I see this new one, thanks again and no rush at all, take your time. Very sorry to hear about the print head. I need to open the file and look at the numbers as I change from monitor to proof mode, never thought of that.



Nov 28, 2013 at 09:35 PM
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