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Archive 2013 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...
  
 
Gunzorro
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p.7 #1 · p.7 #1 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Andre -- I'm sorry you are unhappy about the lack of a D400 debut or any hint that it might ever arrive.

You painted your self into a corner, just as Nikon had been doing, resolutely ignoring benefits of larger imaging formats and squarely defending a DX-only policy. Only when Nikon finally shifted their stance and started building FF models did their prominence shift and begin to regain technical and professional superiority, after nearly 30 years being the underdog.

You can't blame Nikon for following the money! You claim they've left money on the table, but the fact is they are scooping off vaster amounts now and leaving table scraps behind. The real profit is in the "larger format" FF lenses, not the consumer-grade DX.

There are plenty of other brands offering APS-C models if you aren't happy with what Nikon is currently putting out in that format. It doesn't mean you are a traitor to simply incorporate a few pieces from other brands into your collection.

Honestly, I think you are being a bit too stubborn about not buying a Nikon FF camera body and picking up a few new lenses. It would be a relief to many of us! Ha-ha!



Nov 19, 2013 at 06:01 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.7 #2 · p.7 #2 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Gunzorro wrote:

You can't blame Nikon for following the money! You claim they've left money on the table, but the fact is they are scooping off vaster amounts now and leaving table scraps behind. The real profit is in the "larger format" FF lenses, not the consumer-grade DX.



Remember that DX still represents 90% of DSLR sales for Nikon and that's without the D400. Also, my poll suggests that among enthusiasts and pros, a D400 is one of the top three most desired camera bodies behind a D800 and D800h. That tells me that other than the D800, the FX bodies Nikon is actually making individually are not pulling in as many buyers as a D400 would. Nikon is leaving money on the table.



Gunzorro wrote:

Honestly, I think you are being a bit too stubborn about not buying a Nikon FF camera body and picking up a few new lenses. It would be a relief to many of us! Ha-ha!


Ha ha ... I'm sure it would be a relief to many ... But it's not likely to happen anytime soon. Maybe if the DF had been a more manual body with a much lower price. We'll have to wait and see ... my D300 is still clicking away just fine, so no rush to replace it.




Nov 19, 2013 at 06:13 PM
JoshI
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p.7 #3 · p.7 #3 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Andre Labonte wrote:
Remember that DX still represents 90% of DSLR sales for Nikon and that's without the D400. Also, my poll suggests that among enthusiasts and pros, a D400 is one of the top three most desired camera bodies behind a D800 and D800h. That tells me that other than the D800, the FX bodies Nikon is actually making individually are not pulling in as many buyers as a D400 would. Nikon is leaving money on the table.


To be fair, a poll done in a forum like this is biased at best. I'd like to see Nikon make a D400 as much as anybody, but a poll done in a gear forum doesn't accurately represent the actual demographic of potential D400 buyers. I'm sure that Nikon knows what they are leaving on the table. Hell, they might not even be leaving it on the table, they may eventually replace the D400. Or they may know that the users who made the D300 a success are now split between the D7100, D610, Df, and D800/E and that the slice of the pie leftover for the D400 is just too small to be profitable.

I think at some point, though the writing on the wall has to be seen. Nikon released its first DX DSLR 14 years ago. In that time they've built exactly two lenses for the DX format designed for professional use (the 12-24/4 and the 17-55/2.8). There have been a few other very nice lenses released for DX, but none specifically targeted at the professional user market like the two I mentioned. The 12-24/4 and the 17-55/2.8 were both released 11 years ago. Nikon's never updated those lenses and they've never added to them. The reason we've never seen a 50-135/2.8 or a 10-16/2.8 or a 16 or 18mm prime or a DX PC-E lens or any of the number of other lenses DX would need to be a complete system is because the D1-D2XS (and to a lessor extent the D100-D300s) and the 12-24/4 + 17-55/2.8 were placeholders until Nikon could release an FX body for professional use.

Even if Nikon releases a D400 tomorrow, I doubt we'll ever see those missing DX lenses. Yes, DX makes up a huge chunk of Nikon's sales, but the vast majority of those buyers never use more than a pair of kit zooms. I'd love to be wrong, because a 24mp D400 and a 10-16/2.8, 16-55/2.8, 18/1.8 combo would probably put my D800 on the B&S board, but I think they've been telling us for years that the pro DX line was done.

Josh



Nov 19, 2013 at 07:11 PM
Gunzorro
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p.7 #4 · p.7 #4 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Josh -- I think you are making some terrific points here.

Nikon could have added VR to the 17-55 to compete against Canon's model, but obviously decided there was not a strong enough market to support the development. Obviously, Nikon dropped all pro DX gear with the D2Xs and has shown no interest in renewing that path.

And I agree, even if a D400 arrives, there will be no new DX glass for it -- owners will pay for FF lenses if they want the best, and it will trend toward ultra-telephoto, not ultra-wide.

I find it very hard to believe that 90% of Nikon's DSLR production is in DX format. Not since the D700 came out. I'd like some verification of the sales or production numbers. With the arrival of the D800 and D600, I'm sure the slant is considerably more favorable toward FX.



Nov 19, 2013 at 07:23 PM
 

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Andre Labonte
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p.7 #5 · p.7 #5 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Josh - as I have said over and over again, I think it is likely a fair poll of enthusiasts and professionals. Certainly NOT of the general public. The evidence of that is the fact that the consumer DX bodies are hardly represented.

Gunzorro -- I'm looking for that 90% reference ... I'm trying to remember where I read it and the source they used ... I'll keep searching.




Nov 19, 2013 at 10:40 PM
Osai
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p.7 #6 · p.7 #6 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Andre Labonte wrote:
**********************

OK, nice tirade ... and rather usless ... you still have not provided me an answer to my question: please provide the data.

To make things more clear ..

-- I know and have stated there is NO optical magnification
-- I never used the work "reach", you did.
-- I did not claim that pixel density / resolution do not matter ... you did, and that is incorrect.
-- I simple stated three things

1) Extra pixel density / resolution allows for larger print/display sizes regardless of format with limits based on the optical system.
2) At the moment, DX format cameras have
...Show more

I found it. I found what Rhyder is talking about. I took the clues from the puns he used. The answer is there. It took me a while but it was there. He is right about the pixel density. This makes this whole thing moot. WOW! Sorry Andre. Sorry Kerry.



Nov 19, 2013 at 11:27 PM
JoshI
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p.7 #7 · p.7 #7 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Andre Labonte wrote:
Josh - as I have said over and over again, I think it is likely a fair poll of enthusiasts and professionals. Certainly NOT of the general public. The evidence of that is the fact that the consumer DX bodies are hardly represented.

Gunzorro -- I'm looking for that 90% reference ... I'm trying to remember where I read it and the source they used ... I'll keep searching.



Andre, it's called voluntary-response bias and it can and does readily skew results by over-representing those with strong opinions. I'm not simply stating my opinion. I am saying that any survey done in a forum like this with the results extrapolated for the camera market or a subset of the market is useless at best. I'm not saying they are pointless inside the forum, on the contrary they provide an interesting look at the thoughts of forum participants. But to use as the basis for an argument that Nikon should build a camera which, unfortunately, it has to sell to more than just the forum participants, is not logical.

As for the reference, I think at one point Thom Hogan said that FX cameras make up significantly less than 20% of the cameras Nikon sells. I don't remember exactly when he said it, but he may have documented it there.

Josh



Nov 20, 2013 at 12:12 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.7 #8 · p.7 #8 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


JoshI wrote:
Andre, it's called voluntary-response bias and it can and does readily skew results by over-representing those with strong opinions. I'm not simply stating my opinion. I am saying that any survey done in a forum like this with the results extrapolated for the camera market or a subset of the market is useless at best. I'm not saying they are pointless inside the forum, on the contrary they provide an interesting look at the thoughts of forum participants. But to use as the basis for an argument that Nikon should build a camera which, unfortunately, it has to sell to
...Show more


Ah, I get what you are saying ... that makes sense. It would be interesting to have more proper polling results. Thanks for the information.




Nov 20, 2013 at 01:31 AM
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