Home · Register · Search · View Winners · Software · Hosting · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username   Password

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Nikon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2      
3
       4              6       7       end
  

Archive 2013 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...
  
 
bbourizk
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


I for one couldn't be happier with their products. A beautiful D800 and an E that work beautifully together and some lovely glass.




Nov 07, 2013 at 06:50 AM
ytwong
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Nikon sometimes has surprise moves, FM3A, 45mm/2.8 in AF era, F6 as last professional film body in digital age, Df is just another move. Df is not intended for lots of people, otherwise Nikon would place the production line in Thailand but they didn't.

Maybe Df will do fine in Nikon's view.

I see FX as clinging to the past. There is very, very little need for the expense of it. Ever since the invention of film (and enlargement printing rather than contacts) cameras and formats have been getting ever smaller. I shoot a number of different formats, from DX to 8x10. There's absolutely nothing "special" about 35mm/FX. I very much want a smaller camera, one that's easy to carry and has smaller lenses. I love my Leica IIIC! Leica got it right in 1942. The new APS-C cameras from Fuji etc. are the direction I'm heading. Kent in SD

I see FX as yesterdays' medium format. Back in the D2X/D200 days I have accepted that DX is better than 35mm film, and now M43 is even smaller and quality is very good too.

PS. I have FX, DX, and M43 bodies, and 1" compact too. Nothing really special with each but there are differences in quality (arguably every one of them delivers good enough photos).

I have a quick question. Does yours work in Aperture preferred with the newest lenses? My works ok in P mode and I can shift the aperture that way, but it will not let me control the aperture in A mode, which is strange, imho.

I have a F90X (N90) too, my first camera... (18th bd gift from parents, F100 was already in market too but much more expensive). I think if you use G lens with N90, you have to work in P mode, the dial still allows you to change aperture (the display would change to P*), probably not as freely as in A mode. (but then I haven't used the camera for long)



Nov 07, 2013 at 09:50 AM
nikon65
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


I think we all need to remember the FILM days, and remember how far we've come in a short time. We live in a world of "bigger, better, faster," and sometimes we need to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. Both Nikon and Canon are producing some amazing products. Even the best film camera 15 years ago can't touch the worst DSLR on the market today as far as high ISO, frames per second, and the amount of images you can put on 1 card, ( vs: a 36 exposure roll.) So I think we should be thankful for what we have, and get out there and enjoy it, and bring back some great shots.


Nov 07, 2013 at 11:14 AM
Paul Mo
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


nikon65 wrote:
We live in a world of "bigger, better, faster," and sometimes we need to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough.


Indeed. They could try consolidating and working on circuitry which is so advanced and of such a quality it will work 30 years from now - instead of disintegrating. And battery tech - among others.

My point is, that if I am to hand over hard earned cash can I have something with a guarantee that it will keep working for at least a couple of decades, or more? Like a Nikon FM?



Nov 07, 2013 at 11:26 AM
Graham Mitchell
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Andre Labonte wrote:
FX is a new format


Compared to the invention of the wheel, perhaps. The format is 88 years old now.

Not really sure what you are complaining about in general either. Too much choice? Inconsistent nomenclature? Luxury problems.

If the current crop of cameras still isn't good enough for some people then perhaps the problem isn't the camera at all. There is still a huge number of people who believe their photos will be better with the next camera model, and then the next model, etc. Yet these cameras are good enough for the world's top pros. Go figure.



Nov 07, 2013 at 11:51 AM
DaveOls
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


If I were going to spend this much on a camera ( DF ), I would probably just buy a medium format camera and a lot of film and processing instead.


Nov 07, 2013 at 12:31 PM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Graham Mitchell wrote:
Compared to the invention of the wheel, perhaps. The format is 88 years old now.

Not really sure what you are complaining about in general either. Too much choice? Inconsistent nomenclature? Luxury problems.

If the current crop of cameras still isn't good enough for some people then perhaps the problem isn't the camera at all. There is still a huge number of people who believe their photos will be better with the next camera model, and then the next model, etc. Yet these cameras are good enough for the world's top pros. Go figure.


*****************************************

Perhaps you should read my subsequent posts and all your questions will be answered.

But to recap ...

In the Digital Age, FX is the new format and DX is the old format. My post is all about the digital age, not the film era.

Also, the complaint is lack of consistency and clear direction from Nikon along with a failure to follow up past successes.

Again, I invite you to take the time to read through the thread and see my subsequent posts in it.



Nov 07, 2013 at 12:38 PM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


williamkazak wrote:
Why are people so unhappy?


****************************************************

Because when you invest thousands of $$$ in a SYSTEM that you expect to be upgraded and supported over time, it nice if the vendor maintaining that SYSTEM provides clear direction and consistency!

Again, all the new cameras are great and innovative ... but Nikon has failed to provide consistency and follow up past successes as I have already explained.


Edited on Nov 07, 2013 at 02:50 PM · View previous versions



Nov 07, 2013 at 12:48 PM
Dustoff06
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


rhyder wrote:
you got proof of this statement?? I sure don't remember Nikon issuing a statement like that. Post the proof.



I agree with EBH's comment…when I bought my D100, DX was the only game and there was lots of speculation whether Nikon would even jump into FX. I don't have 'proof', but the introduction of the D3's FX format was a big deal at the time.



Nov 07, 2013 at 01:49 PM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Two23 wrote:
I see FX as clinging to the past. There is very, very little need for the expense of it. Ever since the invention of film (and enlargement printing rather than contacts) cameras and formats have been getting ever smaller. I shoot a number of different formats, from DX to 8x10. There's absolutely nothing "special" about 35mm/FX. I very much want a smaller camera, one that's easy to carry and has smaller lenses. I love my Leica IIIC! Leica got it right in 1942. The new APS-C cameras from Fuji etc. are the direction I'm heading.

Kent in SD



*******************
Well said Kent.



Nov 07, 2013 at 02:40 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


rattymouse wrote:
Except the cost of FX is coming down and down and down.

Anything APS-C can do FX can do better, EXCEPT get smaller. If size is your #1 point, then APS-C or lower is what you want.

For maximum IQ, FX beats APS-C hands down.




But for 99% of people and applications, the benefits to IQ of FX are hardly noticable (if at all) over DX. Deminishing returns they call it.

Read this article:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-full-frame-debate.html



Nov 07, 2013 at 02:44 PM
Gunzorro
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Oh! The kvetching!

It's so funny -- for about 30 years, many Nikon owners complained that Canon's revolutionary EOS system has knocked them out of the preeminent Pro status that had been previously enjoyed. I could understand that, it sucks being an underdog.

Today, Nikon has some great products and is truly leading the market in several important areas (much thanks to Sony, but certainly not completely).

Nikon was super-slow to embrace FF and even ignored the better imaging of APS-H sensors.

And today, Nikon is in the forefront of FF imaging and making strides to gain more pro market share.

But still. . . the kvetching! Maybe it is endemic, maybe inbred, maybe over-familiarity breeding contempt, maybe just a few uncomfortable people. I don't know. I don't really get it, since the Nikon line-up looks better than it has in 30 years! It looks cohesive and even occasionally adventurous! That's a new spirit.

My advice: Chill out and enjoy the ride!



Nov 08, 2013 at 01:09 AM
Arka
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Andre Labonte wrote:
Once Nikon projects a direction and has great success, they should follow up that success and flesh out the line-up before forging off into new ground. That said, the D400, D800h and D4x all should have come out before the D600, D800 and DF. But Nikon did just the opposite.


Sounds like what you are saying is that the non-existent cameras people here complain the most loudly about should've come out first, while the cameras that people happily use to make images with right now should've come out after the "line-up" was fleshed out. Well here's a counterfactual for you; Nikon releases the D800h at 16MP on March, 2012, and a D400 on the same day. You buy a camera (because it suits your particular needs and budget), but the system experiences a mass exodus to Canon because those guys have a high resolution camera option in the 24MP 5D.

The right way: Solidify the base products people love and throw innovation on top to beat their expectations.

Or take a gamble and make a single product most users end up loving. And then build on that success as necessary. When the D800 came out, Nikon had no 5D2 equivalent, remember?

Your critique is too hung up on line-ups, and not enough on how good the individual products are. The D800 is a fantastic product. It caused many people to move the Nikon platform and is a de-facto standard in 35mm dSLR image quality. Over a year after it's introduction, there's still nothing better in the 35mm space, and its introductory price was less than its predecessor.

To me, that seems like a fairly successful product strategy. Your position starts as a product critique, but reads to me as a thinly veiled peian for a product that you may never see. So, because Nikon doesn't make the camera you want, it must be dropping the ball because there are so many people just like you, right? Maybe... but I wonder if the online-forum-reality-distortion-field doesn't make the number of complainers appear larger than they are.

You see Nikon behaving in the opposite exteme with the DX lens line-up. Give people too much basic choice (anyone for an 18-XX variable aperature zoom?) while failing to provide pro options.

It could be deliberate. Maybe they don't care to make products in those spaces anymore. Maybe they've concluded there isn't a big enough market for "pro" DX. Look at what happened to the Olympus E-system. The small sensor/large body format didn't play well for most people, pro-build notwithstanding. So the system transformed to a small body/small lens mirrorless platform.



Nov 08, 2013 at 02:07 AM
ytwong
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Andre Labonte wrote:
But for 99% of people and applications, the benefits to IQ of FX are hardly noticable (if at all) over DX. Deminishing returns they call it.

Read this article:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-full-frame-debate.html


Same applies to DX vs M43
M43 vs 1"
1" vs 1/1.7"
1/1.7" vs 1/2.5"
1/2.5" vs iPhone

Many people use smartphone as their primary device to take photos.

Or similarly, 50 1.8D vs 50 1.8G vs 50 1.4 vs ZF vs... Summilux etc....

I'm rather satisfied with Sony's 1" sensor, doesn't mean I should stop using everything else.




Nov 08, 2013 at 02:31 AM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Arka wrote:
Sounds like what you are saying is that the non-existent cameras people here complain the most loudly about should've come out first, while the cameras that people happily use to make images with right now should've come out after the "line-up" was fleshed out. Well here's a counterfactual for you; Nikon releases the D800h at 16MP on March, 2012, and a D400 on the same day. You buy a camera (because it suits your particular needs and budget), but the system experiences a mass exodus to Canon because those guys have a high resolution camera option in the 24MP 5D.
...Show more

**************************

Individually any of your points makes sense, but as a whole, it falls apart when you consider that DSLR systems are just that, SYSTEMS and need to be supported as such.

I stand by what I have said and I'll agree to disagree.




Nov 08, 2013 at 02:35 AM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


ytwong wrote:
Same applies to DX vs M43
M43 vs 1"
1" vs 1/1.7"
1/1.7" vs 1/2.5"
1/2.5" vs iPhone

Many people use smartphone as their primary device to take photos.

Or similarly, 50 1.8D vs 50 1.8G vs 50 1.4 vs ZF vs... Summilux etc....

I'm rather satisfied with Sony's 1" sensor, doesn't mean I should stop using everything else.




You obviously did not read the article You've taken the point to silly extreme. Read the article.



Nov 08, 2013 at 02:36 AM
Arka
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Andre Labonte wrote:
I stand by what I have said and I'll agree to disagree.



What's the system? F-mount? FX? DX? As far as I can tell, F-mount is well-supported and thriving. If the "system" is DX, Nikon hasn't exactly abandoned it. There are quite a few interesting DX lenses, the most recent from Sigma. Furthermore, it seems to me that there are some decent Nikon DX bodies out there as well.

Maybe you won't see a D400 because Nikon believes it is an unenviable combination of a small sensor and a large camera body. We all saw how well that combination ultimately worked out for Olympus E-1 and E-3. Of course, I could also be wrong. But I find it hard to convince myself, as you apparently have, that Nikon lacks vision. The D3, D700, D7000, D800, and possibly even the DF, refute that view quite well.

Maybe what you meant to say is that they don't share your vision.



Nov 08, 2013 at 03:25 AM
Amrit
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...




Arka wrote:
.. but I wonder if the online-forum-reality-distortion-field doesn't make the number of complainers appear larger than they are ...

Reminds me of a city council election a few years back in Antwerp, Belgium. One new party caused a lot discussions. The 'AEL, Arab European League'. It got a lot of podium in discussion programs, articles, news etc etc, even in Holland. It seemed as if they would take over the city. Then elections came and they got less then 0.4 percent of the votes, never heard from them since.

Nikon could have tried with the D400, but apparently they did some research and number crunching on potential sales, revenues & most important: priorities. And decided otherwise.



Nov 08, 2013 at 06:16 AM
ytwong
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


Wrong assumption. I am a frequent visitor of his site, but that doesn't mean I agree with him.

His test doesn't have post-processing in mind too, and doesn't applies to every situations. There are times DOF is not an issue (everything at infinity focus), and don't forget there are more FX lens than DX lens to choose from,there ain't many fast DX prime (only option is the Samyang 16mm/2 ? )

My "latest" FX vs DX direct comparison was D700 vs D300 (yes, that was long time ago) and D700
was better by a considerable margin for my use. I don't have such direct comparison after that (D600 vs NEX-6 isn't fair comparison).

Silly extreme? not really. I use FX to 1" , the rest are just further logical extension since I don't use those compacts anymore. Every format is a compromise.

I still have Nikon DX lens and bodies, D7100 is also on my radar too when it became cheaper (to pair with AFS 80-400, seems to be a good wildlife combo for amateur). I even "almost" pre-ordered the Olympus EM-1 too (EM-1 and D7100 are to me competing options).

Note that I have never said that DX (or smaller) is bad. I use my NEX more often than my FX bodies. I just want to point out the differences in quality is there. There is no need to convince others which format should be used. I would not say FX is every bit as good as a MF backs, but I cannot justify the price nor the bulk and weight, but I wouldn't go to convince those MF guys to use D800E. Diminishing returns applies to everything, it just depends on whether one realize and appreciate the differences.

Andre Labonte wrote:
You obviously did not read the article You've taken the point to silly extreme. Read the article.




Nov 08, 2013 at 06:56 AM
CGrindahl
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Nikon's Problem Isn't the Cameras ...


rattymouse wrote:
Hi Curtis. It's been awhile. Hope you are well. I enjoyed this post of yours. Very very true about Apple and the future will determine if Nikon stays around or fades away. I was interested in the new Df but since it has no manual focus screen, have not written off any interest in this Nikon, or any other for now. I will shoot my trusty FM2 until something else finds my fancy.

About Nikon's "new" line of work, it might be possible that 10 years from now Nikon is a totally different company. Look at Fujifilm. 20 years ago they
...Show more

Hi Tom. I've been away from the Manual Focus thread largely because I haven't been shooting, but I will return.

You make the point I alluded to well when I noted that Apple's salvation was not with computers but with first the iPod and then the iPhone. Now they've added the iPad. Yes, they can all communicate through a computer, but they stirred interest because they offered a fresh experience to consumers of digital media. I am definitely curious about how Nikon will respond to the changing marketplace and whether like Fuji they diversify into very different territory. As is happening with Microsoft who is a day late and a dollar short when it comes to the changing market, those companies that lack vitality and creativity can be in trouble. Microsoft has a couple of big cash cows that are keeping it going but as the cloud matures, these may not be enough. Nikon's world is changing dramatically. I hope they are able to keep it all together in this new world.



Nov 10, 2013 at 01:39 AM
1       2      
3
       4              6       7       end




FM Forums | Nikon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2      
3
       4              6       7       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username   Password    Reset password