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Archive 2013 · 5d ii owners - color noise question

  
 
FarmerJohn
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


So, I am currently a 5D classic owner, but I sent in it to be cleaned by canon and I rented a 5D Mk II for the weekend to try it out and have some fun. I liked it, and definitely liked the high ISO options.

But, I'm looking at the files in Lightroom, and I see to be seeing some unexpectedly high color noise in the shadows. Can any 5D Mk II owners chime in here? (I know everyone loves to hate on canon sensors, so please tell me if you've actually used a 5D Mk II. Thanks )

What do you guys think? Is this usual?
These shots were at ISO 400.


#1 Color NR 25, Shadows 0


#2 Color NR 25, Shadows +46


#3 Color NR at 75, Shadows at 0.


#4 Color NR at 75, Shadows at +46


And... the actual photo... I really like it, but I can still see a little of the noise in the online jpgs. I think this was with the #2 settings.



Nov 05, 2013 at 07:12 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Unless you are making large prints of #'s 1-4, why do you care about noise that won't show in a print of #5


Nov 05, 2013 at 07:20 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


I agree with Tony.

Also, there's no need to go +46 on shadows; simply take more than one exposure and combine through an HDR app, or even 'by hand'.



Nov 05, 2013 at 07:26 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


I guess I would also ask why you are trying to lighten shadows in an area that is not the focal point of the image and has no detail that the viewer would want to see? I don't understand why people try to destroy natural shadows.

shadow: noun

a dark area or shape produced by a body coming between rays of light and a surface.



Nov 05, 2013 at 07:39 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


I could see raising the shadows on the trees- might try using a brush instead of the global adjustment, leaving the water alone?


Nov 05, 2013 at 07:48 PM
FarmerJohn
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Okay, valid points.
john - I did try raising the shadows on the trees just now with a brush, and I do like that look. Good suggestion.

Tony and Jcolwell - valid point on +46. Probably unnecessary. The LR auto-tone also put the exposure at +1.50 and I brought that back down to 0.0. However, I still like the look of the shadows at +20 or so, and the noise gets visible there.

Even without any shadow slider adjustment, look at image #1 - I still see some noticeable color noise there, even with the Shadow slider at 0.0. #3 with ColorNR at 75 is noticeably better, but I don't think I should have to bump that to 75 at only ISO 400.

I realize this is becoming pixel-peeping but I noticed it without intentionally looking for it.
Also, Tony - how are you confident this will not show up in a print? If I see a difference in a web-sized jpg, aren't I going to see it in a big print?



Nov 05, 2013 at 10:00 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


FarmerJohn wrote:
Also, Tony - how are you confident this will not show up in a print? If I see a difference in a web-sized jpg, aren't I going to see it in a big print?



Comparing your image on a computer screen to a print is similar to comparing a transparency on a light table to a print. How many people have you heard say about a print, "Great image, but look at the noise."? You may notice the noise because you are specifically worried about it and looking for it. Others will be more concerned about the look of the whole image. Also, the enlarged print tends to smear out noise.

Why am I confident about that? Because I have often experienced it. Many people have actually thought some of my photos were paintings, until I told them otherwise.



Nov 05, 2013 at 10:11 PM
Mike V
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


That is standard Canon fixed pattern noise.

Kills dynamic range because you HAVE to crush the blacks.




Nov 06, 2013 at 12:14 AM
artd
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Whether you can "see it" in a print depends on the size of the print and the overall area of the noise. I've made prints before where I definitely thought it was noticeable and not acceptable, which led me to scrap the print and go back to rework the file. There are solutions. Typically my process involves running noise reduction on a separate layer (erasing areas of dense detail so as not to smear the rest of the print), applying some manual blurring when noisy shadow spots are particularly large areas, and adding some grain over the entire image.


Nov 06, 2013 at 12:22 AM
johnctharp
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Mike V wrote:
That is standard Canon fixed pattern noise.

Kills dynamic range because you HAVE to crush the blacks.



It's much better in newer bodies- going from a 60D to an EOS-M showed me that, and my 6D is pretty is very easy to clean up.



Nov 06, 2013 at 12:37 AM
Gochugogi
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Mike V wrote:
That is standard Canon fixed pattern noise.

Kills dynamic range because you HAVE to crush the blacks.



It doesn't kill dynamic range if you leave shadows intact. Lifting shadows makes shadow detail more in your face but reduces dynamic range by moving dark areas towards lower mids. The natural transition from black to mid tone is reduced, resulting in a compressed appearance. A touch of selective shadow lightening is great but anymore can easily ruin the image unless you're trying to save a severely underexposed frame.



Nov 06, 2013 at 04:27 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


I was considering not commenting for fear of propagating or participating in a sensor vs sensor thread which is clearly not John's intention here and has yet to happen which is quite refreshing - so far.
I agree with Gochu and Jim's particular points.
It doesn't kill dynamic range if you leave the shadows intact.
As Jim suggested, you may want to bracket exposures so you can always do more with deep shadows later. With my wide field astro imaging, I don't have any problems with this phenomena, and obviously there will be a lot of relatively dark areas. The key again is controlling your exposure and not trying later to increase it by several stops later.

You should do a relatively small print and see what you think per Tony. I bet it will be a non issue. If it still does not fit your photography style, there are some other brands that can preserve 'pushed' shadows better. By pushed I mean really cranking up the brightness by a few stops for the purpose of showing more detail. From a practical standpoint, I don't think it is vital to make the switch. YMMV



Nov 06, 2013 at 07:34 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Yes, absolutely normal with the MkII. I also see this kind of stuff happening sometimes, especially when you go to higher ISO numbers than ISO400. It is a limitation of the sensor in the MkII - you also see the vertical banding which tends to happen often at high ISO numbers in reddish dark areas.

I try to avoid situations where this can potentially cause problems, but normally I stay in a low ISO range anyway. As others mentioned above there are workarounds in post-processing - nevertheless, it is a typical Canon sensor issue which is also present in their newer camera models (given that the algorithms were improved here and it works better at higher ISO numbers).



Nov 06, 2013 at 08:04 AM
FarmerJohn
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Thanks everyone for the feedback, and not turning it into a sensor-vs-sensor thread. Sounds like it is something relatively common, so good to know I didn't have a dud.

What struck me here was that the color noise so much more noticeable than the standard luminance noise. I'm used to bumping the Luminance NR slider quite a bit in some cases, but I've never had to do that for the Color NR slider. I'm also used to having noisy dark areas with my 5D.

I'll try a print and see how it goes. I was hoping to print this in the 16x20 range, I figured it would show up there if I saw it on screen. That's certainly what I've read about sharpness and prints. Maybe it doesn't apply to noise.

I have done bracketed exposures before, but I didn't in this case. Also, from looking at it again, I don't think I need to be pushing the shadows as much as I was originally, except maybe the trees.



Nov 06, 2013 at 08:56 AM
FarmerJohn
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Also, Tony - light tables and transparencies? Too bad the profile sidebar doesn't show age but that reference is a bit before my time! Last time I remember seeing a transparency was middle school with a projector!


Nov 06, 2013 at 08:58 AM
Mescalamba
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Try DxO Optics Pro v9 (30-day trial) with PRIME denoising. Other than that, Topaz DeNoise is rather effective in removing noise (including banding a bit of splotches).

Unfortunately only way around this is to shoot "HDR". That doesnt mean that output must look like HDR, just that you need a bit more exposures to have clean shadows.



Nov 06, 2013 at 09:18 AM
PhilDrinkwater
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


Gochugogi wrote:
A touch of selective shadow lightening is great but anymore can easily ruin the image unless you're trying to save a severely underexposed frame.


I love how people express opinion as fact



Nov 06, 2013 at 11:53 AM
artd
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


FarmerJohn wrote:
Thanks everyone for the feedback, and not turning it into a sensor-vs-sensor thread. Sounds like it is something relatively common, so good to know I didn't have a dud.

What struck me here was that the color noise so much more noticeable than the standard luminance noise. I'm used to bumping the Luminance NR slider quite a bit in some cases, but I've never had to do that for the Color NR slider. I'm also used to having noisy dark areas with my 5D.

I'll try a print and see how it goes. I was hoping to print this in the
...Show more
My rough "rule of thumb" on judging what the print will look like is sizing the image to my intended print size at 300ppi and then looking at it at 50% maginfication on screen. Generally, if I can pick out noise or artifacts at that point I will be able to see it on a print.

As far as the "you don't need to lighten shadows so much" discussion...it's an interesting thing to think about from an image processing philosophy. My own opinion is I do find that there are situations where lifting shadows is necessary either for practical or creative reasons. Also, the idea that lifting shadows reduces the dynamic range I don't agree with. That's really more of an issue if you are lifting the black point. It is possible to lift shadow areas via curve functions which leave deep shadows intact. This can also be done on layers so that you can be selective on the areas you are lifting the shadows; similarly the dodge tool can be used to lighten specific areas.



Nov 06, 2013 at 12:23 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


artd wrote:
As far as the "you don't need to lighten shadows so much" discussion...it's an interesting thing to think about from an image processing philosophy. My own opinion is I do find that there are situations where lifting shadows is necessary either for practical or creative reasons. Also, the idea that lifting shadows reduces the dynamic range I don't agree with. That's really more of an issue if you are lifting the black point. It is possible to lift shadow areas via curve functions which leave deep shadows intact. This can also be done on layers so that you can be
...Show more

Since one of my mottos for prints (most of the time) is, "More light!," I pay a lot attention to shadows and other dark areas of the frame. In my view, there are perhaps three stages that folks go through when dealing with shadows:

1. Leave 'em black since black seems to dramatic on the screen. While this can work, it often starts to look like there is simply nothing there in the shadows and the effect can start to seem overbearing. The term "blocked shadows" is sometimes used to describe this.

2. Lighten everything in the dark areas so that they begin to look as if they were not in shadow. This, too, can be a good approach in some prints, but it can also create a kind of artificial look that doesn't seem congruent with the qualities we recall from the original subject. Some take this to an extreme, and try to make shadow areas look almost as if they were not in shadow - with predictable results: odd color shifts, various sorts of banding, and possibly noise/grain issues.

3. Lighten some of the brightest elements in the shadows to hint at the presence of other details that are not quite visible. Let's say there is a branch in the shadows. The first choice might let that branch simply disappear into black. The second choice might try to show all the details of the branch as if there was far more light in the shadow than was actually the case. This third option might use judicious curve adjustments, careful dodging, and similar techniques to make the brightest parts of the branch just bright enough to be barely visible and thereby to imply the presence of other details that are not visible. It is often surprising how a subtle bit of detail in what otherwise might solid black can give the shadow areas a sense of depth.

If you have the opportunity to look at beautiful prints by some truly excellent printers, you will often notice how careful they are with the shadows - and I think you might notice that the third option is often used and often very effective.

And, of course, this is irrelevant for anyone whose personal style runs to liking shadows totally black or very bright. :-)

Oh, and this is just my (educated) opinion... ;-)

Dan

Edited on Nov 06, 2013 at 02:30 PM · View previous versions



Nov 06, 2013 at 01:10 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 5d ii owners - color noise question


PhilDrinkwater wrote:
I love how people express opinion as fact


hmmm. guess I took it as an opinion.



Nov 06, 2013 at 01:35 PM





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