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Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark
  
 
RustyBug
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


naturephoto1 wrote:
But it could be useful in taking one image where you are shooting as a reference point.

Rich


Agreed ... except that 30 seconds later as cloud formations change, or 10 minutes later (in the golden hours especially) as the sun position changes or when you move your camera/subject/lighting orientation, it is no longer valid to the same degree of accuracy. If I can get my neutrals, neutral (when that's my goal), the difference between a full blown color checker vs. white/gray/black reference likely falls within the limits of personal preference anyway.

If your lighting and orientation are stable, then a color checker holds more validity as a reference. But, if you are "on the move" ... or your lighting is ... it's accuracy (as a one shot reference) may / may not hold to the degree it technically offers (i.e. micrometer vs. yardstick) as it does in the studio where your lighting is stable. Thus, you'd need to reshoot a new reference more than just the once to ensure its continued accuracy relevance.


Edited on Nov 01, 2013 at 10:34 PM · View previous versions



Nov 01, 2013 at 07:31 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


AhamB wrote:
I believe Samuli said that he always uses a white balance grey card for his nature shooting. But does have a pretty technical approach to his shooting.

Not anymore, but I used to do that. I have missed my gray card many times this summer thou. Thanks for mentioning, I would have otherwise forgotten to pack it for next shoot...


About the actual topic; don't know how Sony A850 scores, but it's colors are VERY different compared to 5DmkII. I'm very used to processing 5DmII photos and I have quite much difficulties getting exact colors I did see and/or would prefer, while with Canon's rather crappy sensor I get results I like very easily. Earlier Canons I had were much better for colors (1DmkIII and 5Dc, the ones I had before those were crappy in all possible ways compared to modern dSLRs).

Samuli



Nov 01, 2013 at 07:41 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Not anymore, but I used to do that. I have missed my gray card many times this summer thou. Thanks for mentioning, I would have otherwise forgotten to pack it for next shoot...

About the actual topic; don't know how Sony A850 scores, but it's colors are VERY different compared to 5DmkII. I'm very used to processing 5DmII photos and I have quite much difficulties getting exact colors I did see and/or would prefer, while with Canon's rather crappy sensor I get results I like very easily. Earlier Canons I had were much better for colors (1DmkIII and 5Dc, the
...Show more

It sounds like you're just talking about the difference in raw profiles in your raw converter. For instance, the canned color profiles in LR tend to be much better with Nikon and Canon cameras, compared to Sony. In fact, I'd bet that much of the color differences between cameras being discussed in this thread probably comes down to profiling. I haven't used the canned Adobe Standard profile for a Sony camera in quite a while.



Nov 01, 2013 at 08:03 PM
zhangyue
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark




douglasf13 wrote:
It sounds like you're just talking about the difference in raw profiles in your raw converter. For instance, the canned color profiles in LR tend to be much better with Nikon and Canon cameras, compared to Sony. In fact, I'd bet that much of the color differences between cameras being discussed in this thread probably comes down to profiling. I haven't used the canned Adobe Standard profile for a Sony camera in quite a while.


Before, I have the conclusion as you do! But after browse variant thread of each camera: NEX, m9, d700, 6d, 5diii, Fuji, d800, A900,5dii, my opinion totally changed. The color signature can be first order traced even with many very experienced photographer. Especially over all light condition, WB.

You might be able to get close enough result from say 6d under controlled studio light as you have ample RGB informants to play with, but once it is not case, you simply can't make it right for both color, contrast, and tonality.



Nov 01, 2013 at 08:21 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
Before, I have the conclusion as you do! But after browse variant thread of each camera: NEX, m9, d700, 6d, 5diii, Fuji, d800, A900,5dii, my opinion totally changed.


Considering the large majority of users either use the canned color profiles that come in raw converters, or the camera's jpeg engine, that still doesn't mean that it isn't simply a color profile issue.



Nov 01, 2013 at 08:24 PM
zhangyue
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Whatever that profile is, it must be serious good under all condition

douglasf13 wrote:
Considering the large majority of users either use the canned color profiles that come in raw converters, or the camera's jpeg engine, that still doesn't mean that it isn't simply a color profile issue.




Nov 01, 2013 at 08:28 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


It could also be simply to do white balance differences between cameras.


Nov 01, 2013 at 08:31 PM
sebboh
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
Whatever that profile is, it must be serious good under all condition


for which camera?

it sounds like we need another can you tell the difference thread. all the cameras (5d1-3, 6d, d600, d700, d800, a900, a99, m9, m240, and maybe some NEX and 4/3) shoot the same scene includeing a color checker using the same lens (sigma 35/1.4?). images are not processed other than adobe's standard conversion with adobe standard profile or processed converted using the color checker based profile. images are downsized to 1024px and posted to the web with the exif removed. do people prefer the same cameras, can people identify the camera?

if we get rid of the same lens requirement the work is already done by dpr and a few other review sites. somebody can just download the raws and do the appropriate processing. i'm tired of this speculation.




Nov 01, 2013 at 08:40 PM
RustyBug
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
images are not processed other than adobe's standard conversion with adobe standard profile.

Would be curious to see Adobe's standard vs. the OEM standard for each as well.

sebboh wrote:
if we get rid of the same lens requirement

Sure, Zeiss on one, Canon on another, Sigma on yet a third, Leica on a fourth ... that would help reduce variability in comparison. Which also begs the question regarding OEM design of algorithms, matched to their (dominant/current) lens design approach @ color. We've certainly seen enough shootout's over time to readily realize that not all lenses deliver the same color to the sensor.

Take two great lenses, say 24L TS-E II vs. Zeiss 25 ... mount them on the same sensor, voila, different results.

I don't see how you could objectively use different lenses. That being said, I think you need to approach it either @ same lens for all (i.e. Coastal Optics 60), or use each OEM's best native lens matched to the OEM sensor ... understanding that you are treating it as a system approach (which still doesn't isolate the sensor) and thus use the OEM software as well. I've always wondered which lenses are being used for comparing say a Pentax vs. a Fuji vs. a Leica vs. a Canon (et al).



Nov 01, 2013 at 08:45 PM
zhangyue
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
for which camera?

it sounds like we need another can you tell the difference thread. all the cameras (5d1-3, 6d, d600, d700, d800, a900, a99, m9, m240, and maybe some NEX and 4/3) shoot the same scene includeing a color checker using the same lens (sigma 35/1.4?). images are not processed other than adobe's standard conversion with adobe standard profile or processed converted using the color checker based profile. images are downsized to 1024px and posted to the web with the exif removed. do people prefer the same cameras, can people identify the camera?

if we get rid of the same lens
...Show more
For any camera.
Now i see you don't even think there is difference in color between camera?

Looks like i made mistake disagree with you one thing, now that list will grow unlimited unconditionally...

I am tired of this speculation as well.

then why you prefer your NEX7 over NEX5?

Or, Douglas, you say A900 has better color at all?




Nov 01, 2013 at 09:07 PM
 

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RustyBug
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
Now i see you don't even think there is difference in color between camera?

I don't think that is what was being suggested ... just that a shootout of visual side by side images might be telling of of the diff's (at least that's how I took it) @ significant vs. insignificant. How to standardize objectively that all would agree, might be a challenge though. Are we comparing sensors, or lens/sensor/algorithm throughput to final product?

I like to look at the comparometer ... but I always wonder about looking at a Sony image shot on Sony glass vs. a Canon shot on Canon glass vs. a Fuji shot on Fuji glass ... and what that means for when I go to mount a Sigma, Zeiss, Nikon or Leica on that sensor. Is the diff in the sensor or in the combination of glass/sensor?


Edited on Nov 01, 2013 at 09:20 PM · View previous versions



Nov 01, 2013 at 09:12 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
Or, Douglas, you say A900 has better color at all?



From what I understand, my A900 was able to resolve greens slightly better than a Nikon camera, but I'm not sure that is an obvious difference, and I'm not sure how large a print would have to be to see such a difference. I would imagine that raw color profiles (or jpeg engines,) white balance and lens differences are all much more influential in how we all perceive the color from different cameras.



Nov 01, 2013 at 09:16 PM
sebboh
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
For any camera.
Now i see you don't even think there is difference in color between camera?

Looks like i made mistake disagree with you one thing, now that list will grow unlimited unconditionally...

I am tired of this speculation as well.

then why you prefer your NEX7 over NEX5?

Or, Douglas, you say A900 has better color at all?



sorry, i don't understand this post at all. i asked which camera you thought was performing exceptionally well in your overview of camera threads that you talked about in the previous posts.

not sure why you think i don't believe there is a color difference between cameras?




Nov 01, 2013 at 09:18 PM
Jon Tainton
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
for which camera?

it sounds like we need another can you tell the difference thread. all the cameras (5d1-3, 6d, d600, d700, d800, a900, a99, m9, m240, and maybe some NEX and 4/3) shoot the same scene includeing a color checker using the same lens (sigma 35/1.4?). images are not processed other than adobe's standard conversion with adobe standard profile or processed converted using the color checker based profile. images are downsized to 1024px and posted to the web with the exif removed. do people prefer the same cameras, can people identify the camera?

if we get rid of the same lens
...Show more

It is a tragedy that camera reviewers don't seem to care about color veracity of digicams and as has been mentioned elsewhere the DxO marks might be indicative of a sensors colour accuracy, but then again, might not, sigh.

OTOH IF you do care about color, have some spare time to kill and a pair of eyes, on some photo sharing sites e.g flickr, you can search images taken by the camera model e.g http://www.flickr.com/cameras/sony/dslr-a900/ I know it's subjective and very generalised, but



Nov 01, 2013 at 09:18 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Jon Tainton wrote:
OTOH IF you do care about color, have some spare time to kill and a pair of eyes, on some photo sharing sites e.g flickr, you can search images taken by the camera model e.g http://www.flickr.com/cameras/sony/dslr-a900/ I know it's subjective and very generalised, but


You're right, that is subjective and very generalized. You're talking about photos from both camera jpegs and all kinds of raw converters, as well as various lenses, and each renders color differently. BTW, the A900 was my main, and favorite, DSLR for years, so I'm familiar with the camera.

I'm not saying that there aren't differences in color, but I think they're much more subtle than people are suggesting.



Nov 01, 2013 at 09:25 PM
zhangyue
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


I will stop discuss here seems it is not gonna be looking good or helpful, or benefit anyone any more.



Nov 01, 2013 at 09:37 PM
RustyBug
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


douglasf13 wrote:
I'm not saying that there aren't differences in color, but I think they're much more subtle than people are suggesting.


+1

Imo, most people note the differences at contrast, saturation, vibrance differences coming out of camera's algorithms much more readily than they do actual hue variance. Given the seemingly infinite number of images with uncorrected ambient WB casts that abound, you'd think that over 1/2 the world was color blind. Imo, the nuance of fidelity is lost on some due to the more gross inability to detect hue variance properly (particularly as our eye/brain accommodates).

Imo, the nuance of color fidelity/WB is key to image clarity (not the slider) more so than perceived color ... which (imo) is also why Leica lenses can have that "unveiling" clarity that some people ascribe to the images they produce.

Having a trained ear to be a classical piano tuner is far different from me listening to Led Zeppelin on an iPod. Who is noting the differences is somewhat dependent upon the individual to its detectability sans an objective/standardized reference. Even then, not everyone can tell the fine nuance diff's ... i.e. don't ask me to tune your grand piano (but a guitar is okay though). If people won't learn to properly profile or adjust WB (which is not simply "click here"), then the nuance of sensor difference is wasted / moot no matter how many billions of images we associate to a given camera in an algorithm pp heavy world.

It's not that the diff's don't exist ... but what you do with those diff's either makes them significant and valuable or insignificant and of little consequence. Give me a finely tuned grand piano at Carnegie Hall, and I can play it just as poorly as I can the one in a backwoods Honky-Tonk.



Nov 01, 2013 at 09:45 PM
theSuede
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


The word "accuracy" is the most simple and easy way to define color. IMO all other ways are perceptual, and we all have different perceptions. Often what we perceive as "good" is quite inaccurate.

On top of this, no real rendering can ever really be "accurate". Only the input (raw, in linear space) can be "accurate". There are color rendering models - like the CIECAM02 and others - that try to mimic human perception. The problem is that they're only valid for one image inspection scale... Back off from the print (or screen) to double distance, and the rendering is incorrect. :/

I've worked with both types of "accuracy" metrics for soon 15 years now. S-CIELAB CIEDE for solids (products, house/brand colors in print and so on) and CAM for images in both print and screen/projection. It's very important to know when one is applicable and the other isn't.

The DxO type scales are purely CIEDE, or "solid" color metrics. They are very easy to do since they only concern solid areas of a single color, and that's why they're the most commonly used/presented. Color, when you see it next to another color though...

See those red "eyes" in figure 1? They're the same red. Identical.
See those blue dots on the checkerboard? The ones in the shaded area are NOT brighter than the top ones. They're identical.


And this one, the Monnier-Shevell is even more striking. See the green and the blue stripes? They're not green and blue. They're identical cyans.



Nov 02, 2013 at 12:32 AM
HopeIsEternal
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


To bring this discussion back to the original thread title "Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark"....

When I first stated on FM that the Sony A7 & A7r were using the *same* sensors as the Sony A99/RX1 and Nikon D800/E respectively and explained why, I was derided for being against SONY and had to read a lot of speculative posts claiming that the "new" sony sensors would have better high ISO performance and DR than than the Nikon D800/E.

Well what do we see now. There is almost no difference between the A7r sensor and the Nikon D800E. In fact the Nikon D800/E implementation has better low light performance despite being almost two years older.

I also previously stated that the Sony A7 uses the same poor AF PD pixels as the Sony A99, that SONY did not bring anything new to the table with regards to mirror-less AF performance and that the A7 will not provide anything near classic SLR AF tracking performance. Even the Olympus EM1 smokes it in AF tracking and performance. Also the Canon dual-pixel on-sensor AF technology in the Canon 70D is much more advanced than anything that Sony has developed for it's E-mount cameras. As the reviews roll in and more people try these cameras out they will report on this aspect of the camera's performance and will confirm what I've been saying.

I also wrote about "abysmal" wide-angle ranger finder performance for both A7 and A7r. This would be expected given that the sensors were not redesigned for better acute-angle response despite what the Oracle of Sony, Sony Alpha Rumors claimed. Reviews are coming in and most of them are reporting the same thing: range finder lenses below 35mm are not producing good results and ultra-wide range-finder lenses are a no-go.

I believe that color accuracy for most reputable digital cameras on the market is good enough for all but the most niche users - perhaps scientific imaging or color art reproduction. If you shoot RAW and use post-processing, the difference in results between cameras is almost all due to RAW converter software, it's supplied color profiles, and your setting of white balance and tweaking of color saturation & vibrancy.

So while I prefer Sony's DSLR JPG engine colors compared to say Canon or Nikon, I'm not going to go around arguing for several pages that Canons or Nikons are no good for color pictures as some are arguing here.

What matters more than nitpicking about SMI values is do you have the body you want, the ergonomics, reliability and AF performance? Do you have the range of lenses you want/need, affordable or high performance, the low light options, the zoom options, the long lens stabilized options, the sharpness, flare-resistance and distortion you expect? And finally, is your camera and its ecosystem helping you to take pictures you want to capture or hindering you in some way.






Nov 02, 2013 at 01:17 AM
Worldinlens
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


theSuede wrote:
And this one, the Monnier-Shevell is even more striking. See the green and the blue stripes? They're not green and blue. They're identical cyans.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fYcl0NX8AY0/UnRG6Tm3QeI/AAAAAAAAGEo/IwnIGefl1Sg/s0/Proximity2.jpg


Never seen.. Seems here some effect like to rgb pixels on the display. Cyan mixed with yellow and purple. When we
greatly increase picture we see all colors separately.



Nov 02, 2013 at 01:44 AM
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