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Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark
  
 
Worldinlens
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p.5 #1 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


But regarding color... Hmmmm... Seems Sony really goes away from color step by step. They was last... Just compared high iso shots in RPP with D800, no any difference. Compared and d600 with a7 and the same... Compared with a99 which was good by colour resolution but not very good as a900... and a7 noised less. So target to firsts places in dxo now... I hope to get more good info regarding a7 later... But the mood is shit...

Lovers of colours welcome to world of old cameras totally



Nov 01, 2013 at 12:59 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #2 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Matt Grum wrote:
I think different people see colours differently, just like different camera models.


+1

http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge

This ^ little test clearly illustrates that people do in fact see colors differently. I've taken the test 3 different times and have scored a 4 each time. While that Chi for 3 samples may not yield the same confidence factor as if I had taken the test 59 times, I do not expect that my score is going to become a 12 or a 0 anytime soon. Some folks consistently score 0, while others can't achieve single digits, no matter how hard they try.

When we collectively start using our own eyes as a measuring instrument to evaluate color, it is introducing an additional variability into the assessment / determination. In that regard, the "measurebator" approach provides one less variable to contend with. It isn't that we are so hung up on the numbers that we don't know how to take a picture and are missing the point of image making or the relevance of light to color, but rather that we want to have a more objective means for comparison ... imperfect as it is. It is still certainly more objective (noting the protocol/results methodology) than "looks good to me", when we don't have a clue as to the accuracy of another person's color perception.

Personally, the overall score itself isn't the tell all clue to hang your hat on, but rather a preliminary one ... as it does help provide a gauge of initial interest/expectation. I do like to look at a chart that shows the proximity of test vs. produced so I can see if the colors are close to their targets, or if there is a particular color or two that have rogue response.

That being said ... I have no clue what the score for my Kodak SLR/C is. I'd be curious to know where it sits in the mix of things. I could say, it doesn't matter because I think it looks just fine (and to a degree that is true), but it still would be good to know if I decide to retire the SLR/C for the A7R .... am I gaining color fidelity, or losing color fidelity ... and if so, how much @ significant vs. insignificant.

Measurebators ... please continue.



Edited on Nov 01, 2013 at 03:21 PM · View previous versions



Nov 01, 2013 at 01:35 PM
Jman13
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p.5 #3 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


RustyBug wrote:
http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge

This ^ little test clearly illustrates that people do in fact see colors differently. I've taken the test 3 different times and have scored a 4 each time. While that Chi for 3 samples may not yield the same confidence factor as if I had taken the test 59 times, I do not expect that my score is going to become a 12 or a 0 anytime soon. Some folks consistently score 0, while others can't achieve single digits, no matter how hard they try.


I also scored 4. All of my misses were in the green area.



Nov 01, 2013 at 01:45 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #4 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Cyan for me.


Nov 01, 2013 at 01:47 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #5 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


...and there is also the little issue of color accuracy versus color preference. Some folks may not care so much for color accuracy in their images, particularly when it comes to the differences represented by the numbers being discussed here.

I was going to use a Canon example of a camera that I once used for extremely accurate color reproduction- and how much profiling could make a difference- but when I looked up the SMI of that Canon - a classic 5D- it was actually very good (84/80)! I guess some modern Canons have taken a major step backwards with regard to color accuracy.



Nov 01, 2013 at 01:48 PM
Worldinlens
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p.5 #6 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


5D great old camera. There is all OK with colour resolution As well as many old cameras


Nov 01, 2013 at 01:54 PM
Worldinlens
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p.5 #7 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


RustyBug wrote:
Measurebators ....



This means what I think or another sense?



Nov 01, 2013 at 02:02 PM
kroyston
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p.5 #8 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


RustyBug wrote:
http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge

This ^ little test clearly illustrates that people do in fact see colors differently.


Thanks for sharing. An interesting test... reminded me I need to turn down my monitor's brightness. I took it three times: 25, 21... turned monitor brightness to the minimum then scored 0.



Nov 01, 2013 at 02:39 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #9 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


kroyston wrote:
Thanks for sharing. An interesting test... reminded me I need to turn down my monitor's brightness. I took it three times: 25, 21... turned monitor brightness to the minimum then scored 0.


Hmmm, interesting point ... maybe I should take the test on a different monitor, in different lighting. Even though my monitor is calibrated, I have noted that the adjustments are cyan oriented, maybe that's impacting my ability to finely discern the cyans.

Not that the diff of visual @ 4 vs. 0 is uber-critical (I typically read RGB numbers for assessing neutrality), but it does at least give "cause for pause" when judging my cyans.



Nov 01, 2013 at 03:23 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #10 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Matt Grum wrote:
I've never used a camera model with particularly good colour, but have shot 6 different Canon DSLRs and have always struggled to get colours exactly how I want them or how they look to my eye.


Isn't it time to think about doing something different ... either a different brand of camera with a different approach to color, or consider employing some more technically oriented methods. That or take a look at using different glass. Keep doing the same thing, and you'll keep getting the same results.

Canon has an approach to color that differs from Sony. Which of course, also differs from Leica, Nikon, Kodak, Fuji, etc.

I find it interesting that Fuji colors and Kodak colors ... being rooted @ film manufacturers ... and Sony being rooted in AV might have a different approach to color than camera mfr's, i.e. Canon/Nikon/Oly/Leica.

Realizing the variance in film profiles @ Kodachrome vs. Ektachrome vs. Fujichrome, etc. ... if you didn't like the color response of one film, you chose another. For me, it was Fujichrome for nature, VPS 160 for weddings. There really wasn't a "one size fits all" film response to color. Why would we expect a one size fits all ability of digital to be any different. They are all going to have their shortcomings (fewer is better of course), but imo, it is good to know where their strength/weaknesses are aligned to their approach @ color ... just like we did with film ... and choose accordingly.

Matt Grum wrote:
I can tell there's something wrong without having to "measurbate" anything. I also do not take colour charts on photo outings.


I do not take color charts into the field with me either, but that doesn't mean that there is something wrong with being technically oriented toward understanding the tools that we are using or considering for use. I know that color response diff's exist between my Canon's and Kodak and I choose my tool accordingly just like I used to choose between FujiChrome and VPS.



Nov 01, 2013 at 03:40 PM
 

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carlitos
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p.5 #11 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
not effectively.

i'm curious though, is there a manufacturer that actually does make visually appealing grips? i sure haven't seen one. to be fair though, i think pretty much all cameras are objectively ugly.



Hasselblad!



Nov 01, 2013 at 04:23 PM
AhamB
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p.5 #12 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


RustyBug wrote:
http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge

This ^ little test clearly illustrates that people do in fact see colors differently.


Don't forget that there's a huge variation in the quality of displays, calibration and ambient lighting, so no level playing field.

RustyBug wrote:
I do not take color charts into the field with me either


I believe Samuli said that he always uses a white balance grey card for his nature shooting. But does have a pretty technical approach to his shooting.


Edited on Nov 01, 2013 at 04:38 PM · View previous versions



Nov 01, 2013 at 04:33 PM
zhangyue
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p.5 #13 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Tariq Gibran wrote:
The issue though is that when the difference is 5 points (and probably even 6 ), sometimes the camera with the higher score actually does have higher color accuracy BUT sometimes it has worse color accuracy (depending on where the errors are and how well software can deal with the errors). That seems to be the fallacy in using low number differences. Once you get a huge delta, no software correction is able to overcome all the errors that exist between camera A and camera B AND the probability of the camera having the lower score having lower color
...Show more

We are in the loop. but that is fine. I will let this discuss go.

I am glad it (color but not score itself) seems get more attention than I thought. This could be a good start of force to let camera manufacture take it more seriously than chasing ISO performance. most people really don't care how it looks after ISO3200 or 1600.



Nov 01, 2013 at 04:33 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #14 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


AhamB wrote:
Don't forget that there's a huge variation in the quality of displays, calibration and ambient lighting, so no level playing field.


+1 @ monitor (et al) variance ... which takes us back to the variability of relying on personal perception vs. diagnostic standards.


I believe Samuli said that he always uses a white balance grey card for his nature shooting. But does have a pretty technical approach to his shooting.


I keep a small 3 card set of black, grey & white cards on a detachable lanyard in my truck instead of "fuzzy dice" hanging from the mirror ... just not a color chart. I use them mostly to assess how much "cool" there is relative to orientation @ open sky vs. direct sun depending on which portion of a scene is illuminated by either. Even when I don't take them into the field, they always serve as a reminder to be cognizant of WB orientation @ ambient.

Left side image is taken facing east, illuminated from west. Right side image is taken facing west, illuminated from east.
Time of both images @ 5:06 PM.
Sunset @ 6:44 PM, i.e. images taken about 90 minutes prior.






Both @ 1/500, f/7.1, ISO 160, same WB ... 45 secs apart, 180 degrees E-W orientation diff



Edited on Nov 01, 2013 at 07:40 PM · View previous versions



Nov 01, 2013 at 04:49 PM
sebboh
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p.5 #15 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
First, we don't know what is exact r1xr that differ than r1x other than AA filter? Your guess is still a guess.


sure, i'm just making an educated guess that a giant corporation isn't going to spend money they don't need to. i believe you were recently making statements based on your intuitive feeling about lens design, not sure why i shouldn't be allowed to make such guesses.

zhangyue wrote:
2nd, saying AA filter will not affect color seems stretch as without knowing material, thickness, how exact you can claim it has nothing to do with color for Bayer sensor.


i'm not claiming an AA filter has no effect on color, i'm claiming it isn't part of the color filtering array. removing materials between reality and the sensor measuring them (color in this case) should intuitively () improve the data going to the sensor in they do anything. have you ever looked through a glass window that improved your color discrimination verses an open window?

zhangyue wrote:
3rd. The argument seems become: you are wrong because you think 6 point in score correlate to color response performance unless you agree to 20 make that difference.


i'm not saying you're wrong. you could very well be right about rx1 vs rx1r and the a7r vs whatever it is that you are saying is better? i'm taking issue with you implying that a small difference must mean something when the people doing the actual testing are saying that it's an averaged measure that isn't really interpretable for small differences. also, your "a difference is a difference" statement really hit a nerve with me because this view causes a lot of scientific results in my field to be incorrectly reported to the general public.

zhangyue wrote:
As I said, I don't take it as bible, I don't take it as trash as well. It is nothing wrong or right, just how serious you want take with it. I didn't force you to take it seriously, why you have to have me trash it?

Without known their test repeatability or methodology, you certainly can argue with validation, but at the same time, this doesn't make it invalid as well.


my argument is don't take small differences in score too seriously because they probably aren't significant and may not even be replicable(?).

zhangyue wrote:
The only reason I start take this score more seriously because it happen to show good correlation that what camera capable to have better color. I also seems remember more people prefer 5n color to nex7 color, another coincidence within 10 point difference?


i own both these cameras and i like the color from the NEX-7 better. i've heard other people say the opposite as you now do. the scores show the NEX-7 scoring very slightly higher (i just finally went to the site to check). NEX-7: 80-85, NEX-5N: 80-84. i seriously doubt that is meaningful. i'm pretty sure my preference is due to being able to downsize the nex-7 files more, which smooths color transitions.

zhangyue wrote:
Again, this is only a indication since there is no other way to test this area than DXO score. It is up to person how to take it?

If I can't claim color must be different, just the same you can't claim color must be the same for these two RX1/R.


I made no such claim. i said sony probably hasn't changed the cfa and the difference in score is probably due to sample variation or an artifact of how the calculation is done combined with the increase in contrast at high spatial frequencies.



Nov 01, 2013 at 06:24 PM
zhangyue
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p.5 #16 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
sure, i'm just making an educated guess that a giant corporation isn't going to spend money they don't need to. i believe you were recently making statements based on your intuitive feeling about lens design, not sure why i shouldn't be allowed to make such guesses.

i'm not claiming an AA filter has no effect on color, i'm claiming it isn't part of the color filtering array. removing materials between reality and the sensor measuring them (color in this case) should intuitively () improve the data going to the sensor in they do anything. have you ever looked through a glass
...Show more

I won't comment individually but some general comments.

1. About AA filter, if AA filter have some kind color characteristic, this has to be considered in design of CFA to compensate it. Simply remove it will not make it. So window example is not really applicable before known exact the effect.

2. From D800E and D800 score, 77 total, RGB 2.02 1 1.49 vs 78 total RGB 2.04 1 1.48. you can made a reasonable guess how repeatability/reliability of this test can be. Now, you can see without remove AA physically but cancel it optically seems doesn't impact the score. Obviously, the AA do has some impact on this test or color itself. I don't want make any claim out of it more than it looks like. but 2.02 vs 2.04, 1.49 vs 1.48, this is kind tolerence more than I expect on this test. so I question your sample variation claim, but I certain can't prove you wrong based on that.

3. as engineer background, if I want design something meaningful, the test window (guard band) has to be reasonable small to make test result valid. I assume the same apply here. hence my difference is difference comment. 6 out 80 is not small, if random error, repeatability is this big, apply industry standard 6 sigma analysis, this is not very meaningful test at all.

However, I never disagree how individually should interpolate this number. 6 point won't tell me anything that which has better or worse color, or pleasing color but before we trash this industry standard test validation(again, here I assumed), Can't I assume this imply I need put more effort in my profile to get color match human eyes?

We may not argue anything at all other than my initial comment about color difference of RX1 and RX1R. again this seems a dead end!

But discuss has been very health so far




Nov 01, 2013 at 06:58 PM
naturephoto1
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p.5 #17 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


RustyBug wrote:
+1 @ monitor (et al) variance ... which takes us back to the variability of relying on personal perception vs. diagnostic standards.

I keep a small 3 card set of black, grey & white cards on a detachable lanyard in my truck instead of "fuzzy dice" hanging from the mirror ... just not a color chart. I use them mostly to assess how much "cool" there is relative to orientation @ open sky vs. direct sun depending on which portion of a scene is illuminated by either. Even when I don't take them into the field, they always serve as a
...Show more

It is too bad that these are not available in a much smaller size.







Rich



Nov 01, 2013 at 07:03 PM
sebboh
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p.5 #18 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
I won't comment individually but some general comments.

1. About AA filter, if AA filter have some kind color characteristic, this has to be considered in design of CFA to compensate it. Simply remove it will not make it. So window example is not really applicable before known exact the effect.

2. From D800E and D800 score, 77 total, RGB 2.02 1 1.49 vs 78 total RGB 2.04 1 1.48. you can made a reasonable guess how repeatability/reliability of this test can be. Now, you can see without remove AA physically but cancel it optically seems doesn't impact the score.
...Show more

i'm not sure i would call it an industry standard test, dxo doesn't use it at all in their own scoring, buries the metric deep where few will look, and doesn't say much about methodology or sensitivity. they choose a completely different metric to describe a camera's color performance for a reason (which thesuede discussed), and that one is also one that seems to correlate with your personal views on which cameras have good color and which don't.





Nov 01, 2013 at 07:18 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #19 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


naturephoto1 wrote:
It is too bad that these are not available in a much smaller size.


My perspective is that since nature and nature lighting is so incredibly variable, and our preferences to what we like to see is so highly subjective ... the same green leaf can look about a billion different colors today vs. tomorrow depending on too many variables and who's to say otherwise as to what you actually saw/captured to the degree a color checker can provide.

That being said ... the need for color checker in the field (imo) is a bit like using a micrometer to measure the distance to the moon, when a good yardstick (black/white/gray) will suffice. In the studio however, the color checker can be worth its weight in gold for color critical applications.


Edited on Nov 01, 2013 at 07:28 PM · View previous versions



Nov 01, 2013 at 07:23 PM
naturephoto1
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p.5 #20 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


RustyBug wrote:
My perspective is that since nature and nature lighting is so incredibly variable, and our preferences to what we like to see is so highly subjective ... the same green leaf can look about a billion different colors today vs. tomorrow depending on too many variables and who's to say otherwise as to what you actually saw/captured.

That being said ... the need for color checker in the field (imo) for is a bit like using a micrometer to measure the distance to the moon. A good yardstick (black/white/gray) will suffice. In the studio however, the color checker can
...Show more

But it could be useful in taking one image where you are shooting as a reference point.

Rich



Nov 01, 2013 at 07:26 PM
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