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Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark
  
 
Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


I only shot my A900 at ISO 160 and there, the color always blew me away. Another thing the A900 has going for it color wise is that the standard adobe profile is much, much better than that for the RX1 imo. With the RX1 and many other Sony's, blues (particularly blue skies) are way off by default, with far too much magenta. This is, of course correctable with a good profile and adjustments. The Canned adobe profile also pushes saturation quite a bit giving an almost cheap consumer camera garish look. The A900 default profile, by comparison, was much more subtle, restrained and natural with regard to color. Not having both the RX1 and A900 together, I can't compare them both with proper profiles now. I do know I have had to work more to get good color out of the RX1 than I ever did with the A900.


Nov 01, 2013 at 12:09 AM
zhangyue
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


theSuede wrote:
The magic is in "noticeable difference". I'll short that to JND from here on to abbreviate.

Your sample is a regression sample - if 90 isn't a JND from 80, and 80 isn't a JND from 70, and 70 isn't a JND from 60, and 60 isn't a JND from 50 - does that mean that 50 isn't a JND from 90 No, not really...

The thing with color is that it isn't something you can put "one number" on. That's almost impossible in theory, and definitely impossible in practice.

Two cameras can have the exact SAME score, and behave quite differently.
One
...Show more

Actually, I don't see we have disagreement. (That 6D, 5DIII sample is kind of humor...)

Especially on this SMI number. My point was: since we can't rely on significance of this number, I don't think we can use 20 as a threshold. and at the same time think 5 or 10 is irrelevant.(not talking about 1 or 0.5) 5 point won't tell whole story about how sensor render sky, leaf or skin, but the number certainly can tell which camera require more fussy with profile to get color match human eyes overall...

there has to be some objective number in score... hence this SMI# right? and it seems did a good job indicate which camera is better or worse.

Without mess around profile to deal different lighting condition, WB, I can get much consistent results over condition. Especially for people nonprofessional, not well "trained", or not skill enough (like me,) at least I can get more consistent results.

I don't see we have many disagreement on this topic in this thread so far at all, other than: all modern camera behave similar on this, this is obviously not true. At least the effort to bring out decent color will be significant different even with strong PP skill.






Nov 01, 2013 at 12:33 AM
Buffalonian
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


The link for the grip is wrong. It's the A77 grip.

B&H - Sony A7/A7r grip.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008164-REG/sony_vgc1em_vertical_battery_grip_for.html

Adorama - Sony A7/A7r grip
http://www.adorama.com/ISOVGC1EM.html



Nov 01, 2013 at 01:47 AM
timpdx
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Hmm. I have been shooting DSLRs for a dozen years now and have a demanding fire art photographer friend...and we both find the 6D is one of the finest Canon cameras we have each used. I don't shoot test charts and don't give a darn about them, really like the 6D output, have access to LF printers and the output is outstanding. My only gripe is the DR, but the 6D color accuracy is excellent. I guess I differ from measurabators...back to packing for a photo outing to Oregon where there will be nary a test chart.


Nov 01, 2013 at 02:20 AM
philip_pj
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Always good to have dissenting opinions, the reason a lot of people read widely and discuss technical performance measures is to improve their photography in the field - things like DR, shadow detail, highlight handling, corner perfomance actually matter a lot to that use case.

Believe me (or not of course), in this era of fast developing camera technology this really pays dividends, *especially* for challenging nature photography.

You won't find many test chart shooters here. Just people interested in getting the full story. Best of Oregon light to your endeavours.



Nov 01, 2013 at 02:32 AM
ytwong
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


just checked, DXO is now showing A7R's 's DR as 14.1 , low light: 2746.



Nov 01, 2013 at 02:51 AM
Dpedraza
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Expected nothing less. Great buy and it's well under the d800e price


Nov 01, 2013 at 03:19 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


... and well under the D800E weight and volume!


Nov 01, 2013 at 04:24 AM
sebboh
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
I believe 5 point between RX1 and RX1R is real and difference will be detectable for sensitive eyes. If it is profile correctable? I don't know.


this is the sort of thing that makes me discount small differences in this measure. i seriously doubt sony changed anything about the rx1 sensor going to the rx1r that actually cost them any money. this means the sensor is the same, the cfa is the same, the only difference is they removed the AA filter. this makes think that the difference in score is almost certainly an artifact of how dxo does the test. i haven't looked at a ton one rx1r shots, but in the ones i have looked at only one difference stands out (and it isn't color): contrast at 100% viewing. i'm willing to bet this difference in contrast is what's causing the differences in various scores between the two cameras and that it's largely an artifact of how the score is calculated. i suspect many of the other small differences in scores between different cameras are also due to quirks of the scoring metric more than representative of how people will perceive the colors.




Nov 01, 2013 at 04:49 AM
zhangyue
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
this is the sort of thing that makes me discount small differences in this measure. i seriously doubt sony changed anything about the rx1 sensor going to the rx1r that actually cost them any money. this means the sensor is the same, the cfa is the same, the only difference is they removed the AA filter. this makes think that the difference in score is almost certainly an artifact of how dxo does the test. i haven't looked at a ton one rx1r shots, but in the ones i have looked at only one difference stands out (and it isn't
...Show more

AA filter is freq related! and color is also. so the score difference makes sense. And difference is difference. I still don't think 20 out of 80 makes difference but 6 will not. 1 or 2 might not.

I was saying that because I believe difference is there, until a controlled test between two prove me wrong. Actually, I did see the A/B test in a famous Japanese photo magazine (while waiting for my wife shopping) between RX1/RX1R, even the exact same scene, the color is slightly different for sure. but without knowing img setting, (I can't read Japanese) so I don't want draw a false conclusion just based on that.

In this particular RX1 case, for me, I will choose RX1 just for this reason. I stand by my choice. The gain vs risk in here, I choose risk free for small sharpness loss.

I do see color difference even between A7 and A7r. I bet A7 will have better score than A7R as well. Ultimately, how the AA will affect this score or color response still TBD.






Nov 01, 2013 at 05:22 AM
 

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sebboh
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
AA filter is freq related! and color is also. so the score difference makes sense. And difference is difference.


spatial frequency and light wavelength are not exactly the same thing. so no, the difference doesn't really makes sense. from that fallacious perspective i would expect removing the AA filter to improve color separation since i could now distinguish finer differences in (spatial) frequency.

also, a difference in score does NOT imply a difference. i'm sure i don't have to lecture you about type I and type II errors in statistics. in my work i often measure the same thing twice (or 100 times) and get different values each time. do we know what the sensitivity and specificity of the test are? where do the 95% confidence intervals fall? what about 99% confidence intervals.

what if their testing method is susceptible to color moire (or other bayer related color artifacts)? that might produce a drop in color score that could disappear with a slight modification in the test design.

if anyone has answers to these questions or can point me to a link where dxo explains them i'd appreciate that. i don't think i've ever spent any time on their site. doesn't seem to present much interesting info to me personally...

edit: i also see a color difference in a7 versus a7r, but i've only seen jpegs, they actually do have totally different sensors, and i couldn't pick which i prefer without seeing raws.




Nov 01, 2013 at 06:09 AM
Worldinlens
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Mescalamba wrote:
Yea and CFA almost exactly like D800E. No A7R for me then..

I thought it has slightly worse colors than A99, but said to myself, well its JPGs. Apparently it wasnt JPGs. Sigh. :/

Well, f*ck that.. back to dSLRs.


I guess you need less read this site and more processing real RAW's by yourself mind and eyes. And this colour response measurement does not the same that means colour resolution and cfa. Let's wait another kind of info regarding this from another sourses if you need. For example from here blog
http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/203537.html

For examle look at the colour response regarding Leica M9 from the DxO labs for understanding This measurements from DxO only shows colour accuracy and colour gamut much more than true colour resolution of the sensor. Different senses and first does not means the second



Nov 01, 2013 at 07:08 AM
Emacs
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Mescalamba wrote:
http://www.dxomark.com/About/In-depth-measurements/Measurements/Color-sensitivity

Simply called SMI. A7R result of 78/75 is a "meh". D800E has 77/74 (I guess these sensors are really very similar). And for example 1D-X has 73/74, which is a bit.. tragic. Especially compared to 1D/s MK3 .

Bottom is currently 6D with 69/70. Thats somewhere around "tragicomedy" level. Quite visible in all pics taken with it.

Obviously people dont have same vision of colors and some are more or less colorblind. Since most photographers are still men, which are even more colorblind, it doesnt matter that much as it could.

That said, SMI is directly tied to CFA used. Better you get,
...Show more
D4 is not better than any other Nikon, as you can easily see. And I agree with you: with their previous cameras Sony was ahead of all in color separation. Metamerism index was about 84-86 most of the time. I expected this to be the case with A7r. It's a big downer it won't differ from Nikon. There's just too many drawbacks to buy it: lack of electronic first curtain, no touch screen, fixed EVF (swivel one increases stability very much by torque reduction due to center of weight placement), now too thin CFA, poor performance with RF wides.
I would prefer about 2500 high ISO performance: I could get much better with NR than this 0.13 stops difference, but colors are unrecoverable.



Nov 01, 2013 at 07:28 AM
Emacs
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Worldinlens wrote:
I guess you need less read this site and more processing real RAW's by yourself mind and eyes. And this colour response measurement does not the same that means colour resolution and cfa. Let's wait another kind of info regarding this from another sourses if you need. For example from here blog
http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/203537.html

For examle look at the colour response regarding Leica M9 from the DxO labs for understanding This measurements from DxO only shows colour accuracy and colour gamut much more than true colour resolution of the sensor. Different senses and first does not means the second

I easily see how bad colors are with 5d3 (74 metamerism index). I much prefer my NEX-5n colors (84 metamerism index) over anything else I had.



Nov 01, 2013 at 07:30 AM
Worldinlens
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Yes, often corresponding with our feelings, but this index not the same 100% than the density of cfa


Nov 01, 2013 at 07:40 AM
Worldinlens
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Anyway, im thinking about a7 much more that a7r...


Nov 01, 2013 at 07:48 AM
zhangyue
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
spatial frequency and light wavelength are not exactly the same thing. so no, the difference doesn't really makes sense. from that fallacious perspective i would expect removing the AA filter to improve color separation since i could now distinguish finer differences in (spatial) frequency.

also, a difference in score does NOT imply a difference. i'm sure i don't have to lecture you about type I and type II errors in statistics. in my work i often measure the same thing twice (or 100 times) and get different values each time. do we know what the sensitivity and specificity of the test
...Show more
First, we don't know what is exact r1xr that differ than r1x other than AA filter? Your guess is still a guess.
2nd, saying AA filter will not affect color seems stretch as without knowing material, thickness, how exact you can claim it has nothing to do with color for Bayer sensor.
3rd. The argument seems become: you are wrong because you think 6 point in score correlate to color response performance unless you agree to 20 make that difference.

As I said, I don't take it as bible, I don't take it as trash as well. It is nothing wrong or right, just how serious you want take with it. I didn't force you to take it seriously, why you have to have me trash it?

Without known their test repeatability or methodology, you certainly can argue with validation, but at the same time, this doesn't make it invalid as well.

The only reason I start take this score more seriously because it happen to show good correlation that what camera capable to have better color. I also seems remember more people prefer 5n color to nex7 color, another coincidence within 10 point difference?


Again, this is only a indication since there is no other way to test this area than DXO score. It is up to person how to take it?

If I can't claim color must be different, just the same you can't claim color must be the same for these two RX1/R.





Nov 01, 2013 at 08:15 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
3rd. The argument seems become: you are wrong because you think 6 point in score correlate to color response performance unless you agree to 20 make that difference.



The issue though is that when the difference is 5 points (and probably even 6 ), sometimes the camera with the higher score actually does have higher color accuracy BUT sometimes it has worse color accuracy (depending on where the errors are and how well software can deal with the errors). That seems to be the fallacy in using low number differences. Once you get a huge delta, no software correction is able to overcome all the errors that exist between camera A and camera B AND the probability of the camera having the lower score having lower color accuracy becomes so high, it must be worse. That seems pretty logical to me.



Nov 01, 2013 at 11:50 AM
Matt Grum
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


timpdx wrote:
Hmm. I have been shooting DSLRs for a dozen years now and have a demanding fire art photographer friend...and we both find the 6D is one of the finest Canon cameras we have each used. I don't shoot test charts and don't give a darn about them, really like the 6D output, have access to LF printers and the output is outstanding. My only gripe is the DR, but the 6D color accuracy is excellent. I guess I differ from measurabators...back to packing for a photo outing to Oregon where there will be nary a test chart.


I think different people see colours differently, just like different camera models. I've never used a camera model with particularly good colour, but have shot 6 different Canon DSLRs and have always struggled to get colours exactly how I want them or how they look to my eye.

I can tell there's something wrong without having to "measurbate" anything. I also do not take colour charts on photo outings.



Nov 01, 2013 at 12:35 PM
carstenw
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


timpdx wrote:
Hmm. I have been shooting DSLRs for a dozen years now and have a demanding fire art photographer friend...and we both find the 6D is one of the finest Canon cameras we have each used. I don't shoot test charts and don't give a darn about them, really like the 6D output, have access to LF printers and the output is outstanding. My only gripe is the DR, but the 6D color accuracy is excellent. I guess I differ from measurabators...back to packing for a photo outing to Oregon where there will be nary a test chart.


Ah yes, the old trick where when you run out of intelligent things to say, you just start insulting people.

The Canon 6D has a colour problem, which shows in the very large measured differences to better cameras, and also in the views of many experienced photographers around here and elsewhere. Is it a useless camera incapable of taking good photos? Of course not. Is it anywhere near as good as the best cameras for colour, hell no. If you see no difference, that doesn't mean everyone else is a measurebator, just that you don't see colour well.


Edited on Nov 01, 2013 at 03:00 PM · View previous versions



Nov 01, 2013 at 12:43 PM
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