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Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark
  
 
sebboh
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Tariq Gibran wrote:
So, if we take the RX1 (84/81) and RX1r (79/75) example I cited, your conclusion is that these two cameras are using a completely different CFA which is why they differ? I suspect there is more to it, perhaps including the AA filter as well as software tuning. Anyway, I bet the A7 with it's AA filter will likely have a better measurement. Incidentally, the Leica M 240 only scores 75/71 but I really don't hear folks talking about how bad Leica color is. I suspect the delta has to be pretty large to really matter. Per DxO:
"In practice,
...Show more

i actually i hear a lot of people whining about the colors on the m240 compared to the m9. though i think maybe the m9 scores even worse?




Oct 31, 2013 at 06:03 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
i actually i hear a lot of people whining about the colors on the m240 compared to the m9. though i think maybe the m9 scores even worse?



The measurements are really close between the M9 (76/72) and m240 (75/71) and the strict difference is inconsequential just going by this measurement alone. I think it's the case that sometimes cameras have high numbers and great color and low numbers and not so great color BUT there is not always a correlation between the two (so one can't always go by this measurement). This is probably why DXO says the measurements are not very discriminating and that they don't even use them in their overall scoring.



Oct 31, 2013 at 06:12 PM
JimUe
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


dmora wrote:
It's like Sony is incapable of making a vertical grip that doesn't look like an afterthought or a huge brick...


this is how you make a VG.







Oct 31, 2013 at 06:24 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


DXOmark publishes great, informative charts. And completely useless, made up "scores." Why does everybody repost the latter?

Also, seems the D800 sensor is an (imperceptible in photos) smidge better. I would've expected the opposite from a newer camera even if it used the same or nearly the same sensor.



Oct 31, 2013 at 06:26 PM
sebboh
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Lee Saxon wrote:
Why post the meaningless, totally made up DXO "Scores" instead of the charts that are actually useful?

Also seems the D800 sensor is an (imperceptible in photos) smidge better. I would've expected the opposite from a newer camera even if it used the same or nearly the same sensor.


nikon always seems to score a smidge better than sony when they use the same sensor. same with pentax.




Oct 31, 2013 at 06:31 PM
alwang
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
i'm curious though, is there a manufacturer that actually does make visually appealing grips? i sure haven't seen one. to be fair though, i think pretty much all cameras are objectively ugly.



Objectively, I love the look of Rolleiflexes. The ergonomics are crap, though




Oct 31, 2013 at 06:54 PM
millsart
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


I think the Sony grip actually looks rather cool, in sort of a sparse, modern design, yet one that should still remain quite functional.

I for one don' really care too much what a grip looks like, but rather how it performs.

What good are looks if there is too much flex between the body and grip or it creaks and groans whenever you pick it up



Oct 31, 2013 at 06:58 PM
zhangyue
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Tariq Gibran wrote:
So, if we take the RX1 (84/81) and RX1r (79/75) example I cited, your conclusion is that these two cameras are using a completely different CFA which is why they differ? I suspect there is more to it, perhaps including the AA filter as well as software tuning. Anyway, I bet the A7 with it's AA filter will likely have a better measurement. Incidentally, the Leica M 240 only scores 75/71 but I really don't hear folks talking about how bad Leica color is. I suspect the delta has to be pretty large to really matter. Per DxO:
"In practice,
...Show more
Well, some people do complain about M's color. I was struggling with 6D color, though you can always heavy process your file make it looks like your color or some color but never accurate color and saturated, vivid color. some channel will easily get blown up because of color information is gone at the time of capture.

This is a pretty serious issue which most people ignore or insensitive about. Since there is no real spec and no objective target, most manufacture choose cheating this (leading by canon) by putting priority to low light performance.


Edited on Oct 31, 2013 at 08:39 PM · View previous versions



Oct 31, 2013 at 07:46 PM
zhangyue
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
i actually i hear a lot of people whining about the colors on the m240 compared to the m9. though i think maybe the m9 scores even worse?


No, in this DXO spec, actually M9 is indeed better, but not much I believe. This score won't tell us everything, since there is always pleasing color. but it is a good indication I will use from now on for any camera I purchase.

Now I realize Triaq beat me on m9's color response score.



Oct 31, 2013 at 07:47 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
No, in this DXO spec, actually M9 is indeed better, but not much I believe. This score won't tell us everything, since there is always pleasing color depend on our sensitivity but it is a good indication I will use from now on for any camera I purchase.


The difference between the M9 and M 240 measurement is a completely insignificant 1 point. Even 5-10 points is probably insignificant going by the measurement alone. I'm going to accept what DxO says in that this measurement is not very discriminating. If it was really meaningful, they would use it in their scores...and perhaps no one would buy medium format digital backs since most are also not tops in this measurement yet do have really great color in my experience (as indicated by their Portrait Score)

The DxO score that really matters with regard to color is the Portrait/ Color Depth score. It's described by DxO as:

"Portrait photography: Color Depth

Flash studio photography involves a controlled and usually maximal amount of light. Even when shooting with hand-held cameras, studio photographers rarely move from the lowest ISO setting. What matters most when shooting products or portraits is to aim for the richest color rendition.

The best image quality metric that correlates with color depth is color sensitivity. Color sensitivity indicates to what degree of subtlety color nuances can be distinguished from one another, often meaning a hit or a miss on a pantone palette. Maximum color sensitivity reports, in bits, the number of colors that the sensor is able to distinguish.

The higher the color sensitivity, the more color nuances that can be distinguished. As with dynamic range, color sensitivity is greatest when ISO speed is minimal, and falls rapidly with rising ISO settings. DxO Labs has focused on measuring only maximum color sensitivity.

A color sensitivity of 22bits is excellent, and differences below 1 bit are barely noticeable."



Oct 31, 2013 at 08:51 PM
 

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dasrocket
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Many of us pay a lot of attention to the details in our environment; maybe (myself here even more attention than the pixels in our photography.

...Don't be sad, it's ok to appreciate and put some thought into design. YMMV

As for the grip, yeah it's pretty brutal -but in line with the core NEX design dogma.

Rickuz wrote:
When people talk about "ugly" cameras or "ugly" grips, are they seriously talking about the looks of the product, or are they referring to the ergonomics?

Sad and ridiculous if it's the former. Do these people use their cameras as some kind of chick-magnets?




Oct 31, 2013 at 09:04 PM
zhangyue
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Tariq Gibran wrote:
The difference between the M9 and M 240 measurement is a completely insignificant 1 point. Even 5-10 points is probably insignificant going by the measurement alone. I'm going to accept what DxO says in that this measurement is not very discriminating. If it was really meaningful, they would use it in their scores...and perhaps no one would buy medium format digital backs since most are also not tops in this measurement yet do have really great color in my experience (as indicated by their Portrait Score)

The DxO score that really matters with regard to color is the Portrait/
...Show more

At the risk drive this off topic again, we had a discuss before on this topic. I believe MF put priority on skin tone rendering rather than absolutely color accuracy.

Most people assume that profile in software can do wonder to compensate CFA discrepancy to human eyes, which is true general speaking. but unfortunately it is not the case always.

especially at difficult or low light. Actually even with good light, I can never achieve the same green from 6D as M9. At certain case, the PP can go extreme to get target color. it is very hard to keep decent color at the same time keep decent tonality, contrast. My knowledge on this topic is quite limited, basically profile(software) can't truly compensate CFA (hardware) implementation. Joakim(thesuede) has given many interesting contribution on this topic.

Basically, it is more important than it looks or DXO claims like, at least for some people.






Oct 31, 2013 at 09:18 PM
rexx714
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Canon sure has fallen behind.


Oct 31, 2013 at 09:20 PM
jcolwell
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


rexx714 wrote:
Canon sure has fallen behind.


Not for excellent AF at high fps.

(it all depends on what floats your boat)



Oct 31, 2013 at 09:21 PM
douglasf13
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


sebboh wrote:
nikon always seems to score a smidge better than sony when they use the same sensor. same with pentax.



Iliah Borg, who does the color profiling for RPP, used to talk quite a bit about the differences in the CFAs that the various camera companies use, and how Sony sacrifices a bit of high ISO performance for better color with a less transparent CFA. I'm not sure how one gleans that from DXO Mark, though.



Oct 31, 2013 at 09:41 PM
Jon Tainton
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
At the risk drive this off topic again, we had a discuss before on this topic. I believe MF put priority on skin tone rendering rather than absolutely color accuracy.

Most people assume that profile in software can do wonder to compensate CFA discrepancy to human eyes, which is true general speaking. but unfortunately it is not the case always.

especially at difficult or low light. Actually even with good light, I can never achieve the same green from 6D as M9. At certain case, the PP can go extreme to get target color. it is very hard to keep
...Show more

Ah, away from flash studio togging and for natural light and subject matter, there are a few landscapers who still prefer the Sony A900 for its color capability. Coincidentally, the Sony A900 has a DxO SMI score of 87



Oct 31, 2013 at 09:47 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


zhangyue wrote:
At the risk drive this off topic again, we had a discuss before on this topic. I believe MF put priority on skin tone rendering rather than absolutely color accuracy.

Most people assume that profile in software can do wonder to compensate CFA discrepancy to human eyes, which is true general speaking. but unfortunately it is not the case always.

especially at difficult or low light. Actually even with good light, I can never achieve the same green from 6D as M9. At certain case, the PP can go extreme to get target color. it is very hard to keep
...Show more

Yes, Joakim/ theSuede has addressed this color accuracy/ color response/ DxO metemerism number previously. I looked it up and I believe his conclusion on the meaningfulness of this DxO number jives with what I thought he had said. That is, it might be close to meaningless (particularly given that all the cameras we are comparing are within 5-10 points of one another). I have highlighted the relevant text.

"Color accuracy on the other hand, is more about matching camera color to human vision color. Here DxO uses metameric indexes as in ISO standard 17321. This uses ONLY linear math to try and match camera raw's to human vision. It is a measurement of how well you can fit the CFA filters to the human eye response, without resorting to spot color corrections.

But spot color corrections are part of almost any camera more advanced than a cell-phone module nowadays, so the SMI should be taken with a big lump of salt. It doesn't tell that much about the camera, and it certainly does not tell if the errors produced are good-natured (easy to correct with spot color corrections) or pure metameric failures that are impossible to correct.

A camera with an SMI of 80 can be WORSE than a camera with an SMI of 75, if the errors are in sensitive colors and if they are incorrigible.
But a camera with SMI80 will almost certainly be a lot better than the camera with SMI60."

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1196797/1


Edited on Oct 31, 2013 at 10:03 PM · View previous versions



Oct 31, 2013 at 09:58 PM
Mescalamba
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


douglasf13 wrote:
Iliah Borg, who does the color profiling for RPP, used to talk quite a bit about the differences in the CFAs that the various camera companies use, and how Sony sacrifices a bit of high ISO performance for better color with a less transparent CFA. I'm not sure how one gleans that from DXO Mark, though.


D3x vs A900 for example. D600 vs A99 (but thats a bit unfair due A99 SLT design). Well, they dont do that anymore, A7r is proof. Same colors as D800E, same results as D800E. I guess they were tired of making something that only few appreciate. Im sure it will work for them tho. It does for Canon for quite some time..

5 points difference is visible, 10 points is more or less obvious, 15 points is striking. Dont believe? Unless you are colorblind, compare pics from 1Ds MK3 vs 6D under daylight. Or if someone wants more striking result, A900 or A99 vs 6D.



Oct 31, 2013 at 10:01 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Mescalamba wrote:
D3x vs A900 for example. D600 vs A99 (but thats a bit unfair due A99 SLT design). Well, they dont do that anymore, A7r is proof. Same colors as D800E, same results as D800E. I guess they were tired of making something that only few appreciate. Im sure it will work for them tho. It does for Canon for quite some time..

5 points difference is visible, 10 points is more or less obvious, 15 points is striking. Dont believe? Unless you are colorblind, compare pics from 1Ds MK3 vs 6D under daylight. Or if someone wants more striking result, A900
...Show more

So, you disagree with what theSuede writes with regard to this topic which I just quoted? A coincidence doesn't automatically lead to a correlation (your examples).



Oct 31, 2013 at 10:04 PM
douglasf13
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Sony A7R sensor gets high scores from DxOMark


Mescalamba wrote:
D3x vs A900 for example. D600 vs A99 (but thats a bit unfair due A99 SLT design). Well, they dont do that anymore, A7r is proof. Same colors as D800E, same results as D800E. I guess they were tired of making something that only few appreciate. Im sure it will work for them tho. It does for Canon for quite some time..

5 points difference is visible, 10 points is more or less obvious, 15 points is striking. Dont believe? Unless you are colorblind, compare pics from 1Ds MK3 vs 6D under daylight. Or if someone wants more striking result, A900
...Show more

I'm not sure that it is certain, yet. The D600 and RX1 score very similarly in terms of DR and SNR, too, despite the higher SMI of the RX1. I don't think SMI is necessarily a good indicator. Like theSuede has mentioned, the Leica M9 also handles color more like MFDB (Iliah says the same,) and it only has an SMI of 76.

I doubt that Sony has stopped using their usual CFA design. The new sensor is probably just a little more efficient than the older D800 sensor, so that could be equalizing the SNR and DR.



Oct 31, 2013 at 10:09 PM
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