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Archive 2013 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread

  
 
ohsnaphappy
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


There's another thread about the 58, if you're confused about why Nikon launched this lens, please go there and bicker.

This thread assumes that the new 58 offers astounding image quality, which I think is evidenced from the samples.

So assuming this is a phenomenal lens how will it compare to the 24, 35, and 85? The right answer is buy them all right? But if you had to buy two... Or three... Hmmmm. That's tough.

I shoot all my portraits with the 85 1.4G and I'm quite happy. But goodness this lens looks compelling



Oct 17, 2013 at 12:38 AM
hijazist
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


I think it makes a perfect trio for pros along with the 24. 1.4g & 85 1.4g. I can't justify buying it because the Sigma 35 & 85 cover my needs and I am not a pro, but that's irrelevant to others.

What's weird to me is that some people bash and complain about a certain announcement just because it doesn't fit their specific needs. "If it's not good for me or can't afford it then it sucks" kinda thing



Oct 17, 2013 at 12:46 AM
low325
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


I'm excited for this lens. I might even sell my 24-70 for it. I'll have to wait for reviews and try one out myself. Nikon is surely making it easy for those that want to transition all to primes.


Oct 17, 2013 at 12:49 AM
a.RodriguezPix
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


that bokeh is amazing, plus its a G lens! i assume that means it'll be snappy, heavy, but snappy! it comes as a surprise to me, since less than a week went buy, that i sold all my Nikon gear, D800, Nikkor 85 1.4D, etc, to get a Leica M9, until, I came to my senses, so the next think I did, was went to Canon again, since I always wanted to try the 85mm 1.2 MK II L. Well, i will just follow his advice...No photographer is as good as the simplest camera. - Edward Steichen, but, im not sure sometimes! here are some horrid samples...

rollei 6008 film fuji instant...

La Dama de la Muerte by aRolleiBrujo, on Flickr

Two by Nikon d800 plus manual focus 28mm 2.8 AIS...


a.rollei.brujo.rodriguez-17 by aRolleiBrujo, on Flickr


a.Rollei.Brujo.rodriguez-36 by aRolleiBrujo, on Flickr



Nikon D800 85mm 1.4D via crop mode...

a.Rollei.Brujo.rodriguez-2 by aRolleiBrujo, on Flickr
on crop too via 80-200mm 2.8D


a.Rollei.Brujo666-11 by aRolleiBrujo, on Flickr




85MM 1.4D



a.Rollei.Brujo.rodriguez-9 by aRolleiBrujo, on Flickr










Edited on Oct 17, 2013 at 12:58 AM · View previous versions



Oct 17, 2013 at 12:55 AM
ohsnaphappy
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


I think if this lens is a sign of things to come, Nikon is once again ahead of the game. The D800 wooed so many a Canon shooters and got way out ahead on DR.

The description of this lens mentions things like: low light performance, designed for bokeh!, edge to edge sharpness, sharp wide open, solid at maximum aperture. If, if, this lens delivers in those areas Nikon has hit on all the current trends in photography. If it delivers it will be the new superstar in the lineup.



Oct 17, 2013 at 12:56 AM
the solitaire
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


ohsnaphappy wrote:
I think if this lens is a sign of things to come, Nikon is once again ahead of the game. The D800 wooed so many a Canon shooters and got way out ahead on DR.

The description of this lens mentions things like: low light performance, designed for bokeh!, edge to edge sharpness, sharp wide open, solid at maximum aperture. If, if, this lens delivers in those areas Nikon has hit on all the current trends in photography. If it delivers it will be the new superstar in the lineup.


I think Nikon is far from ahead. They still donīt have a prosumer DX dSLR body and all their full frame offerings are "so far ahead" that pros rather buy the D3s then the new D4.

Itīs nice that Nikon revives an old lens and takes the aperture ring away, but I think thatīs just a way to lure in customers they would otherwise lose to Zeiss, Canon, Sony and whoever else is quite busy in different areas on the market. They try to play catch-up in so many areas that they keep losing ground and if they keep this up the only thing that will really happen is that more long-time customers make the move to a different manufacturer or even a completely different system.

In the spirit of this thread, I would be delighted to see lots of sample images made with this lens soon to see how it compares to the Nikon 55 f1,2 lenses. Especially when using all of them at f1,4.



Oct 17, 2013 at 01:25 AM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


the solitaire wrote:
I think Nikon is far from ahead. They still donīt have a prosumer DX dSLR body and all their full frame offerings are "so far ahead" that pros rather buy the D3s then the new D4.

Itīs nice that Nikon revives an old lens and takes the aperture ring away, but I think thatīs just a way to lure in customers they would otherwise lose to Zeiss, Canon, Sony and whoever else is quite busy in different areas on the market. They try to play catch-up in so many areas that they keep losing ground and if they keep this
...Show more

Maybe do some reading before you start writing:

http://imaging.nikon.com/history/scenes/33/index.htm



Oct 17, 2013 at 02:27 AM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


I was planning a 35mm + 85mm combo, but with the launch of this lens, 24mm f/1.4 + 58mm f/1.4 + 105mm f/2.0 looks tempting. Unfortunately, two of them are the most expensive short Nikkor primes in the universe, but that's live


Oct 17, 2013 at 02:34 AM
trenchmonkey
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


One of my favorite MF portrait lenses was the CV 58 f1.4 on my D3/D2Xs...going back a few years.
This offering brings AF and Nano to a great FL, albeit a most expensive one. Very interesting, Nikon.



Oct 17, 2013 at 05:40 AM
the solitaire
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
Maybe do some reading before you start writing:

http://imaging.nikon.com/history/scenes/33/index.htm


Ok, so where did I write anything not in line with Nikons PR stuff?
They clearly state that the lens can live up to the reputation of the NOCT. So they did revive the NOCT, redesigned the lens, slowed it down 1/2 a stop and added AF.

None of that changes that they are, at the time, far behind the competition in several areas, and they donīt focus on their unique selling arguments. None of the traditional Nikon focal lengths received an update in the past 10 or 20 years. Iīm talking about 28mm, 55mm, 135mm, 180mm. The 105mm micro Nikkor got an update that moved it away from being a purebred micro lens and more towards a portrait lens which is fine. Nikon has a long tradition in 105mm portrait lenses. The new 105 however is far from unique and there are better portrait 105mm lenses out there.

I fail to see where me reading would change anything to my opinion in this matter. Itīs nice to see a revamped 58mm but I think itīs too little and even though itīs not too late, it is close to that time.



Oct 17, 2013 at 07:45 AM
JoshI
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


Why all of the heartache over 8mm? 58mm is a classic Nikon focal length. It makes for a more compelling DX lens. It's still comfortably inside the normal range. And 58mm a f1.4 gives you similar depth of field to 50mm at f1.2. Producing an f1.2 AF lens for the narrow F mount is no easy task. Nikon had patents, but I guarantee you they shelved the 1.2 because they could not make it perform the way they wanted it to without making it enormous and pricing it out of the market. And the pricing fits right in with the other high performance 1.4 G primes, so while I understand wishing it was cheap, I don't understand being upset that it is not. You get what you pay for most of the time.

I think it's great that Nikon is producing a high performance normal prime. I probably won't be buying one, but only because I don't have much need for a normal prime. If you're going to wait for Sigma to make that 50mm f1.0 or 1.2 Art for the F-mount, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Josh



Oct 17, 2013 at 08:32 AM
the solitaire
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


JoshI wrote:
Producing an f1.2 AF lens for the narrow F mount is no easy task.


Nikon has been making f1,2 lenses for the F-mount for over 45 years now and all of them perform great as long as you know how to focus a lens. Why would they have any difficulty making another one?

I see more merit in claiming they donīt see much use for f1,2 in todays world where cameras can take pictures with ISO speeds of 1600 and higher without suffering.



Oct 17, 2013 at 08:50 AM
JoshI
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


How many f1.2 AF lenses have they made? I don't think you read what I wrote. I wrote that my guess is that the f1.2 AF design they patented was too costly or too large or both to make sense for the market. I don't doubt they can make one. I doubt they can make it affordable.

While I'm not a Nikon engineer, I know that to chip a 58mm f1.2 NOCT you have to grind away a portion of the rear element. Doesn't leave much room for the pins needed for an AF lens. I could be wrong, but Nikon has been building AF lenses for 30 of those 45 years and they've yet to produce an f1.2 AF lens. They've even gone so far as to leave the 50mm f1.2 AIS in production for 30 plus years. I think if it was feasible to design and to sell, we would have seen one by now.

Josh



Oct 17, 2013 at 09:07 AM
Slug69
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


Anyone who has used the Canon 85 f1.2 knows just how useless the af is wide open. Manual focus is what works best. (With a proper viewfinder)


Oct 17, 2013 at 09:29 AM
AMaji
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


From a comment posted on Nikonrumors.com http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/17/nikon-af-s-nikkor-58mm-f1-4g-lens-announcement.aspx/

"For headshots/beauty shots he uses either the 85/1.8G or the 105DC 2.0 on the D800. For full length fashion shots, he now uses the 50/1.4G, but it is a tad too wide, working distance is a tad too close, compression of perspective is not quite there and it is not that sharp wide open. He predicts that this lens would pretty much have 'the best of all worlds' by combining wide open sharpness and contrast with slightly better working distance, shallower DOF and more compression of perspective.He tried the 24-70 at around 60mm and that works, but it's not quite there, the 60 macro is very sharp but doesn't 'draw' nicely.

Although he is not one of the 'one eye in focus' gang, he does daylight studio work with shallow DOF regularly. He reckons that this lens on a D800 might give the same 'feel' to the images as the classic 80mm zeiss on a Hasselblad (the good old ones, not the lunacy), giving his images more of a MF feel. And he's excited about taking it out for nighttime fashion shoots, mixing ambient and fill flash.
He also reckons that for wedding Pros, it will be an excellent lens for full length posed formals in available light and reception candids."



Oct 17, 2013 at 09:40 AM
the solitaire
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


JoshI wrote:
How many f1.2 AF lenses have they made? I don't think you read what I wrote. I wrote that my guess is that the f1.2 AF design they patented was too costly or too large or both to make sense for the market. I don't doubt they can make one. I doubt they can make it affordable.

While I'm not a Nikon engineer, I know that to chip a 58mm f1.2 NOCT you have to grind away a portion of the rear element. Doesn't leave much room for the pins needed for an AF lens. I could be wrong,


I doubt they want to make one and offer it for less then $1700. They offer a 58 f1,4 for $1700 and already have folks lining up to buy one. What again did the 50 f1,4 cost? Compare that to an 85 f1,4. You could buy both the 50 and the 85 and pay whatīs left of the $1700 this 58mm costs towards a Sigma 35 f1,4. Then again, I might be an idiot and obviously donīt see where the 58mm is better then having 3 top of the line f1,4 lenses.

As to the grinding and space requirements bit, just take a look at how Canon deals with this:

http://www.juzaphoto.com/shared_files/articles/canon_50_f1/canon_50_f1_c.jpg

I doubt Nikon is unable to do the same, even if their connections are retractable and round. Space requirements will be the same or less then for the Canon connections.

They already ground a bit off of the rear element on the 55 f1,2 S. The technology is there. The manual focus lens proved that it fits in an F-mount regardless of what people wish to believe.

PS: the aftermarket dandelion chip mount is large enough to fit all the contacts for AF as well. If the chip fits, so will the AF contacts.

So plain and simple, Nikon could build a 58mm f1,2 lens if they wanted to. What they would charge for it will remain a mystery. They seem content releasing yet another f1,4 lens and as long as it sells, why wouldnīt they? The practical use for an f1,2 lens is nonexistent in todays world. As I mentioned before, if you want narrow DoF, pick up a longer lens. Modern camera ISO speeds made the need for an f1,2 lens obsolete.

In regards to how technically feasible such a lens is, I start to believe the AF isnīt accurate enough for f1,2 "normal" primes. OtoH, it works fine for a 400mm f2,8... Who knows?



Oct 17, 2013 at 11:27 AM
ohsnaphappy
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


I switched from Canon to Nikon. My main portrait lens was the 85 1.2L II and it is now the 85 1.4G. This is what I do for a living, so I'm not concerned with price of the lens and I'm not concerned with the digits printed on the barrel. All I care about is the image quality that I present to my client so he or she will want to spend money. That's called business. I can tell you that the images I've made with Nikons 85 1.4 are truly exceptional. I would never go back to Canon, their 85, doesnt feel like it's in the same league. So the desire for 1.2 when you have an exceptional 1.4 makes no sense to me. I can't see it as anything more than pride and bragging rights. If the 58 is in the same league as the 85, or better, then it's an exciting opportunity. It could be a 1.8 or 2 for all I care, if it delivers quality, then I'm game.


Oct 17, 2013 at 12:04 PM
hijazist
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


the solitaire wrote:
I doubt they want to make one and offer it for less then $1700. They offer a 58 f1,4 for $1700 and already have folks lining up to buy one. What again did the 50 f1,4 cost? Compare that to an 85 f1,4. You could buy both the 50 and the 85 and pay whatīs left of the $1700 this 58mm costs towards a Sigma 35 f1,4. Then again, I might be an idiot and obviously donīt see where the 58mm is better then having 3 top of the line f1,4 lenses.

As to the grinding and space requirements bit,
...Show more

How is the 50 1.4g, 85 1.4g and Sigma 35 1.4 are equal to $1700? The 85 alone is $1650...



Oct 17, 2013 at 02:28 PM
JoshI
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


@the solitaire

Turns out we were both wrong, it was about peripheral illumination: Haruo Sato Interview



Oct 18, 2013 at 01:01 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · The Inevitable 58 vs X Thread


Well, being an old fart that can't see/hear so good anymore, I prolly shouldn't be talking about or buying fast lenses, but that's what I like. I even like WA like the 58 once in a while.

I must admit though, to being quite puzzled about this lens. I have an old 50 f/1.4 AF-d, that doesn't get mounted since I got a Sigma. I have the 60 micro, Sigma 35 f/1.4, the 45 PC and 85 f/1.4d, 105 DC and 105 micro, so I already have a ton of fast, WA, "normal" to short tele lenses.

This new 58, at $1700 is a shocker, especially considering that the new 50 f/1.4g is $440 on Amazon today.... I've always thought about buying an old NOCT, but just couldn't see doing so. This new lens must be amazing, (as good as the 200 f/2?) at least I hope that it is.

I also hope that this doesn't mean that when they eventually get around to doing the 105 f/2 and 135 f/2 as G lenses, that they won't be $2600 or higher...

Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing some amazing images from you guys that buy this lens.

Kerry



Oct 18, 2013 at 05:00 PM
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