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Archive 2013 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses

  
 
Jabberwockt
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p.24 #1 · p.24 #1 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


The need for RF adjustment depends more on how much it is used rather than time. Dropping the camera or being rough with it probably increases the frequency.


Oct 20, 2013 at 06:50 PM
LightShow
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p.24 #2 · p.24 #2 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


redisburning wrote:
I dont understand why this lens has Sony style MTF. The graph claims ~MTF97 for 40 lp/mm at f8 which is complete horse****. Great lens or not Zeiss ought to give us real MTF graphs since target audience for such a lens probably understands the difference between theoretical and production measured MTF.

Maybe that's because Sony makes it, not Zeiss, just like the E24/1.8Z








Oct 20, 2013 at 06:56 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.24 #3 · p.24 #3 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Jabberwockt wrote:
The need for RF adjustment depends more on how much it is used rather than time. Dropping the camera or being rough with it probably increases the frequency.


...or just mounting and un-mounting lenses often apparently (per the link I provided earlier).



Oct 20, 2013 at 07:08 PM
charles.K
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p.24 #4 · p.24 #4 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Surprising. I would have thought Leica would have a recommended service interval. I see where the calibration can drift over time and where it's ideal to get new lenses calibrated:

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/06/08/leica-m-rangefinder-calibration-service/



The new M240's are very accurate with their new method of calibrating the RF. The device required is very expensive for repair centers and is an order of magnitude more accurate. The M9's, did drift, and probably required every two years a recalibration. At least while traveling, the M240 has the LV as a backup for the RF. It is not for a lot of people, but it is a huge improvement over the M9.

I am disappointed that the M lenses are not going to play well with the A7's and maybe I should have appreciated the complexity of the optics and the difficulties already experienced with the NEX's. Moving to a FF sensor would also magnify any issues. So for now, I will wait I have no desire to re invest in a new lens lineup.



Oct 20, 2013 at 09:03 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.24 #5 · p.24 #5 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


charles.K wrote:
The new M240's are very accurate with their new method of calibrating the RF. The device required is very expensive for repair centers and is an order of magnitude more accurate. The M9's, did drift, and probably required every two years a recalibration. At least while traveling, the M240 has the LV as a backup for the RF. It is not for a lot of people, but it is a huge improvement over the M9.

I am disappointed that the M lenses are not going to play well with the A7's and maybe I should have appreciated the complexity of the
...Show more


Thanks for the info Charles. So the M240 rangefinder is mechanically different than in previous M's and is more robust and reliable? I didn't know that.



Oct 20, 2013 at 09:12 PM
RustyBug
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p.24 #6 · p.24 #6 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


rscheffler wrote:

It's kind of pointless to buy a $1300 ZM21/2.8 only to shoot it at f/8 or greater, IMO.

+1 @ this ^



Oct 20, 2013 at 09:14 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.24 #7 · p.24 #7 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Thanks for the info Charles. So the M240 rangefinder is mechanically different than in previous M's and is more robust and reliable? I didn't know that.


Yep. Apparently, it is a completely different mechanism to prior M's. Many (myself included) feel that the accuracy of the RF system in the M240 is superior to other models.



Oct 20, 2013 at 09:19 PM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.24 #8 · p.24 #8 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Yes people should wait. I remember the same sky is falling talk when the 1st m240 samples were found on the internet.


Oct 20, 2013 at 09:24 PM
theSuede
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p.24 #9 · p.24 #9 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Taylor Sherman wrote:
Ah, thanks!

I'm sure they're really doing something that looks like that, and it seems to have the desired effect, but everything I know about what could be described as a "low-pass filter" seems to be irrelevant to what they're saying those two layers do. (how does the second layer know which photons to recombine and which ones are legitimately coming in at the second location and hence should be left alone?).



Polarization. The AA filter is a birefringent, which is a crystalline material that has a different refractive index for X-pol and Y-pol light. It works by creating two perfectly sharp images on the other side of the plate, displaced from each other by the difference in refractive strength. The light that was displaced by the first layer is all of the same polarization angle, so then you can use that fact to "bend the same light" back again with a filter layer that you've rotated 180 degrees. They will both have the same amount of displacement for the "other" polarization, so no difference to normal optical glass for that.

The reason they did it in the D800E was to cut cost... (!)
If you remove the plates entirely, you have to shift the sensor mount since they (the plates) change the optical path length. This means two mount plates and two different mount settings for the machine that places the parts - much harder to shift production then.

It seems the A7 and A7R have different body frame parts (which the D800/D800E doesn't). And additionally - they're not the same sensor plate assembly... So there's no reason to add expensive materials that needn't be there (for Sony).



Oct 20, 2013 at 10:17 PM
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p.24 #10 · p.24 #10 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


RustyBug wrote:
+1 @ this ^

Many people buying and more expensive UWA Zeiss lenses for landscapes and use f/5.6-16 in fact.



Oct 20, 2013 at 10:23 PM
RustyBug
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p.24 #11 · p.24 #11 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Worldinlens wrote:
Many people buying and more expensive UWA Zeiss lenses for landscapes and use f/5.6-16 in fact.

But not so they can then contend with smearing, vignetting and color shifts. Canon's 17L & 24L II TS-E's also cost more than the ZM and get used in that range, but the larger image circle and different angles of incidence yield an IQ that isn't nearly as challenged / compromised by the steep angles of rangefinder UWA glass.

If your goal is truly landscape quality IQ, then I don't really see the concept of using high dollar UWA rangefinder glass to get "pretty good" corners really viable so you can correct vignetting, color shift and smearing additionally in post.

$$$ for Zeiss UWA SLR or TS-E glass to get your landscape quality makes more sense for me when it comes to UWA. The wider you go, the tougher it gets ... choose your poison @ size/weight vs. IQ. Why put a compromised/uber-challenged optical projection on the "latest & greatest" FF sensor if your goal is IQ? Yes, it's cool that rangefinder glass is now useable on FF, but I'd relegate that to the normal/longer focal lengths or even moderate WA (i.e. 35mm), but not the UWA's.

FF is the same size @ mirrorless as it is for SLR ... the math for the optical projection still has to project a given FOV onto the same area. The closer you put your rear element to your sensor, the steeper/more challenging the compromises become.

Having a FF mirrorless camera (vs. SLR) changes nothing regarding optical projection challenges of projecting a 100 degree FOV onto a 24mm x 36mm area. Rangefinder glass is going to be more challenged by its closer proximity to the sensor than that of SLR or TS-E lenses.

The shot posted by Wfrank shows pretty well on the NEX. But my experience with UWA on FF is that the real problem areas fall outside of the FOV on crop. I could be totally whack on this, but we'll see how it shakes out for using UWA rangefinder on FF Bayer array.

Edited on Oct 20, 2013 at 11:50 PM · View previous versions



Oct 20, 2013 at 11:26 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.24 #12 · p.24 #12 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


RustyBug wrote:
But not so they can then contend with smearing, vignetting and color shifts. Canon's 17L & 24L II TS-E's also cost more than the ZM and get used in that range, but the larger image circle and different angles of incidence yield an IQ that isn't nearly as challenged / compromised by the steep angles of rangefinder UWA glass.

If your goal is truly landscape quality IQ, then I don't really see the concept of using high dollar rangefinder glass to get "pretty good" corners really viable so you can correct vignetting, color shift and smearing additionally in post.

$$$
...Show more

I'm actually a bit confused about this issue. In fact, RF UWA are the best performers in terms of corner sharpness and distortion compared to SLR glass. On the M9, there is absolutely no corner smearing and very little color shift with the vast majority of lenses. The M240 is a little step backwards in color shift but no smearing whatsoever. So the RF WA and UWA are a very attractive option for landscape photographers exactly because of sharpness across the frame and little to no distortion. I am sure that if Leica with its humble resources can do it, Sony can do it even better. If the A7R is not as good as the Leica M cameras in the corners, it must be a deliberate choice by Sony rather than a technical difficulty.



Oct 20, 2013 at 11:44 PM
rcholas
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p.24 #13 · p.24 #13 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


theSuede wrote:
If you remove the plates entirely, you have to shift the sensor mount since they (the plates) change the optical path length. This means two mount plates and two different mount settings for the machine that places the parts - much harder to shift production then.

It seems the A7 and A7R have different body frame parts (which the D800/D800E doesn't). And additionally - they're not the same sensor plate assembly... So there's no reason to add expensive materials that needn't be there (for Sony).


Er, no.
The reason the D800E uses two birefringent plates is because one of the birefringent plates is bonded to the sensor's ceramic package itself.

The filter stack (IR filter and AA filter) is located between the focal plane shutter and the sensor, and must be kept as thin as possible. Since the flangeback distance of Nikon's lenses is constant, a thick stack would reduce the room available for the swinging reflex mirror.
The addition of a vibration-based dust removal system to the sensor stack, and the resulting need for space, thus presumably drove the decision to replace the sensor package's hitherto plain optical glass cover plate with a birefringent crystal cover plate implementing the second half of an X-Y birefringent AA system.

Considering that the sensor is probably the most expensive part in a full-frame DSLR, it probably didn't make sense from a design and production standardization, as well as spare part inventory management, to have separate, non-compatible sensor packages and sensor mounting frame designs for the D800 and the (niche) D800E.

Nikon therefore decided to use the D800's sensor package covered with a birefringent plate, even on the "lowpass-less" D800E, and just modified the structure of the front part of the D800's AA filter (front birefringent crystal and wave plate) so that the net effect is a cancellation of the birefringence, and hence cancellation of the AA effect.

The A7R's sensor, being a 36MP version, is different from the A7's 24MP sensor anyway, production standardization issues are moot.
The A7R's 36MP sensor is thus probably, unlike the D800E's 36MP sensor, just covered with plain glass.

This, however, in no way implies that the optical stack in front of the A7R's sensor is any thinner than the A7's.

To account for the AA stack's refraction effect, the lenses must be designed accordingly. Lenses that didn't account for the refraction caused by the filter stack and sensor cover glass would suffer, among others, from astigmatism in the sagittal direction and field curvature.

To maintain compatibility with the lenses designed for other E mount cameras, the A7R must thus be equipped with an optical stack that has the same refraction properties as the AA-equipped NEX and A7 cameras, minus the birefringence part.

This means that the A7R probably has a fairly thick glass plate in front of the sensor.
With non-telecentric wide-angle rangefinder lenses, the glass plates will presumably induce levels of aberrations — i.e. smearing — that are comparable to the A7's, if one excepts some tiny, incident angle-dependent AA amplitude effects that will be present only on the AA-equipped A7.

Of course, if the old rangefinder lens has, by chance, a field curvature characteristic that's in the reverse direction of the one induced by a digital sensor's optical stack, then, using it on a digital sensor might actually improve the IQ in the corners. I have no idea how frequent such fortunate coincidences would be.


Edited on Oct 21, 2013 at 01:39 AM · View previous versions



Oct 20, 2013 at 11:55 PM
RustyBug
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p.24 #14 · p.24 #14 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


edwardkaraa wrote:
In fact, RF UWA are the best performers in terms of corner sharpness and distortion compared to SLR glass.


Okay, if that is so on FF digital ... then I've been missing something all along.
I get that the proximity to the film plane/sensor provides for a nice contrasting projection, but are you saying it comes without any additional penalties, such as ... smearing, vignetting and color shift into the edges/corners ... and that it actually has less distortion?

Now, I'm (respectfully) confused.



Oct 20, 2013 at 11:56 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.24 #15 · p.24 #15 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


RustyBug wrote:
Okay, if that is so on FF ... then I've been missing something all along. I get that the proximity to the film plane/sensor provides for a nice contrasting projection, but are you saying it comes without any additional penalties, such as ... smearing, vignetting and color shift ... and that it actually has less distortion?

Now, I'm (respectfully) confused.


As you know, RF glass can be freely designed to perfection because there is no mirror in the way that limits the position of the rear element. That is why RF wides are superior in terms of sharpness across the frame, distortion, and even CA. The price to pay for that has always been vignetting due to the proximity of the rear element to the sensor plane.

Now smearing and color shift are a deficiency in the imaging sensor itself, being unable to register correctly light rays that are too oblique.

What I'm saying is that Leica was able to solve the smearing problem on its FF sensors completely, and the color shift not quite but almost, and with a little help of software correction completely eliminated. I am sure if Sony wants to, it can even do better than Leica.

In my own experience, and I have used Canon glass on Canon, Contax on Contax, Contax on Canon, ZE on Canon, ZA on Sony, ZS on Sony, I have never been as impressed as with my ZM glass on the M9. I think these lenses are as close to perfection as it can be.



Oct 21, 2013 at 12:11 AM
hiepphotog
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p.24 #16 · p.24 #16 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


edwardkaraa wrote:
In fact, RF UWA are the best performers in terms of corner sharpness and distortion compared to SLR glass.


Ain't that a bit too much generalization? Talking about the top UWA (I assume 24 and below), Zeiss has been on that top 21 for a long time with the Distagon. Only recently, Leica was able to give a similar (or very slightly better) 21. Compared the latest 24/1.4 design (Nikon design vs. Leica), I would say the Nikon is just as good in term of resolution but without the crazy wavy MTF. I don't think any of the 18 RF would beat the Canon 17 TSE. And the Zeiss 15 would beat any RF 15 hand down. The advantage of a mirrorless lens is the size but that certainly comes with a lot of optical obstacles to overcome.



Oct 21, 2013 at 12:22 AM
RustyBug
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p.24 #17 · p.24 #17 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Okay Ed, thanks.

I understand what you're saying ... but I'm not quite following that they are superior to a TS-E with its larger image circle yielding angles that are not too steep, and has very little vignetting. As with all optics, they are a series of trade-offs and compromises.

How would you categorize the differences between an UWA ZM and a UWA TS-E such that the ZM would be noted as superior. I prefer to consider them as differences or trade-offs ... tough call for me at superior, particularly given the magnitude of vignetting. Some folks think the vignetting is character, but others, not so much ... (Although I can be persuaded).



Oct 21, 2013 at 12:33 AM
philip_pj
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p.24 #18 · p.24 #18 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Distortion - there is no dispute, the RF lenses are better, though the 21/3.4 SEM has 1.5%, the Distagons' 2.4%.

For corner sharpness we have some solid data, so here are the averages of sagittal and tangential lines at image height of 21mm (very corner of 35mm frame) and centre and maximum for a few select wide angles of 21mm focal length - more is better, all measured at f5.6:

Lens-MTF(cnr)-MTF(ctr)-MTF(max)

Leica 21/f3.4--52-80-80
ZM 21/2.8-----52-84-84
21/2.8 G------47-69-78
ZE 21/2.8-----57-75-78
CY 21/2.8-----50-77-80

This says nothing about the general appeal of the lens but I hope it lays to rest the old meme of RF wides being significantly better in the corners, as they are not as measured by the companys' own benches. Nor are they better anywhere in the frame against this opposition.

Technically I like the CY 21D and the Leica 21/3.4 SEM the best. These are least likely to show CA and have the most even performance curves. The Leica has a fair bit of line separation in mid-centre field where it should not, and where the CY is strongest, but the CY does the same at IH of 12-14mm. The Leica diverges at the corners stopped down, Zeiss got the 21D just right at the corner at the same aperture, quite a feat.

The ZM looks good on paper as an average but has very messy corners with highly diverging lines (T=0.2), indicating serious loss of tangential detail (concentric around the axis).

Best wide open across the frame is the M 21/3.4, but at the same aperture the 21Ds would both be almost as good. I did not include the Leica M 21/2.8 as it was weaker than the others, with very poor profiles to its MTF lines.

Weight, the G lens is 200g, the other RFs are 270-300g, CY D21 530g, ZEF D21 720/600g.



Oct 21, 2013 at 01:45 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.24 #19 · p.24 #19 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


RustyBug wrote:
Okay Ed, thanks.

I understand what you're saying ... but I'm not quite following that they are superior to a TS-E with its larger image circle yielding angles that are not too steep, and has very little vignetting. As with all optics, they are a series of trade-offs and compromises.

How would you categorize the differences between an UWA ZM and a UWA TS-E such that the ZM would be noted as superior. I prefer to consider them as differences or trade-offs ... tough call for me at superior, particularly given the magnitude of vignetting. Some folks think the vignetting is character,
...Show more

Tbh, I didn't have the TS lenses in mind. I would expect these to be superior in every respect, vignetting, distortion, corner performance. After all these are special application lenses specifically designed for architecture.



Oct 21, 2013 at 02:58 AM
glacierpete
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p.24 #20 · p.24 #20 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


For those interested here are some technical and scientific contribution to this topic from Schneider Kreuznach
http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/en/photo-imaging/product-field/photo-lenses/products/know-how/



Oct 21, 2013 at 03:28 AM
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