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Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
  
 
retrofocus
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p.119 #1 · p.119 #1 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


I don't see any banding in my A7R shots even if I push shadows hard.


Aug 03, 2014 at 09:08 PM
SKumar25
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p.119 #2 · p.119 #2 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Molson, would you be able to share the raw file of that image ?


Aug 03, 2014 at 09:14 PM
artd
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p.119 #3 · p.119 #3 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


molson wrote:
No windows or other bright lights here...

But that the spot where your banding occurred was lined up with the bright light source in the window. Does this happen with every image you push like this regardless of what the lighting is like? I've tried to replicate this with my A7r files and I just can't find it, even pushing as far as possible and moving fill light to +100. The closest I've seen to something like this was the flare that can occur with a Metabones III adapter which looks like linear bands.

If this is happening with your native mount lenses too it might be a different issue (although hard to tell, as your FE banding example looks different than the church photo, and it's a close crop.) And if this is happening in every image, as opposed to just a handful, it might be worth investigating to make sure you don't have a faulty sensor or something....



Aug 03, 2014 at 11:35 PM
molson
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p.119 #4 · p.119 #4 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


artd wrote:
But that the spot where your banding occurred was lined up with the bright light source in the window. Does this happen with every image you push like this regardless of what the lighting is like? I've tried to replicate this with my A7r files and I just can't find it, even pushing as far as possible and moving fill light to +100. The closest I've seen to something like this was the flare that can occur with a Metabones III adapter which looks like linear bands.

If this is happening with your native mount lenses too it might be
...Show more


I was using a Metabones IV adapter, and the second example from the church is from a spot nowhere near the windows and not in line with any bright objects in the frame. The SD card was a Sandisk Extreme SD-HC 45MB/s

The example taken with the Sony 35mm FE lens probably looks different because it's a crop from a horizontal image - the others are from vertical images. The banding is the same, and it's all over the entire frame, as in this example I just snapped a few minutes ago - with a different lens and a different type and brand of SD card (Lexar Professional 32GB SD-HC 600x)





  ILCE-7R    FE 55mm F1.8 ZA lens    55mm    f/2.8    1/2500s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  




Aug 04, 2014 at 01:20 AM
SKumar25
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p.119 #5 · p.119 #5 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Would help with the analysis if you can provide the raw files.


Aug 04, 2014 at 01:59 AM
molson
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p.119 #6 · p.119 #6 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


SKumar25 wrote:
Would help with the analysis if you can provide the raw files.


In what way?

To be fair to Sony, the 6D is a little worse under the same circumstances - although these are extreme examples.

I'm starting to think there may be a Nikon D810 in my future...





  Canon EOS 6D    Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 2/50 ZE lens    50mm    f/2.0    1/1250s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  




Aug 04, 2014 at 02:18 AM
SKumar25
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p.119 #7 · p.119 #7 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


molson wrote:
In what way?


You made this statement in the previous page: "The "Exmor Tartan" shadow noise banding on the A7R is worse than anything I was ever able to produce on the Canon bodies"

Then you're sharing jpgs showing the issue, which is meaningless as we have no idea as to what's been done to the file as there is no reference point.



Aug 04, 2014 at 02:49 AM
molson
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p.119 #8 · p.119 #8 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


SKumar25 wrote:
You made this statement in the previous page: "The "Exmor Tartan" shadow noise banding on the A7R is worse than anything I was ever able to produce on the Canon bodies"


I did clarify that first part by showing the 6D is as bad, or possibly worse... but I also looked back through my 5D Mark III and 1Dx files, and with similar exposure value ranges (4-5 stops) both of those cameras showed less obvious and smaller-patterened banding.



Then you're sharing jpgs showing the issue, which is meaningless as we have no idea as to what's been done to the file as there is no reference point.



Do you think I drew those lines on the image in Photoshop?



Aug 04, 2014 at 03:18 AM
Matt Grum
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p.119 #9 · p.119 #9 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


SKumar25 wrote:
Then you're sharing jpgs showing the issue, which is meaningless as we have no idea as to what's been done to the file as there is no reference point.


molson wrote:
Do you think I drew those lines on the image in Photoshop?


No, but if you push any sensor far enough you will see some fixed pattern noise. So without knowing exactly what's been done to the RAW file there's no basis for comparison.

I haven't seen this with any other A7/A7R images, there may be a fault with your camera.



Aug 04, 2014 at 08:44 AM
schlotz
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p.119 #10 · p.119 #10 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Looks pretty typical to me when a very dark section of a photo has been pushed too far in PP.


Aug 04, 2014 at 02:27 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



snapsy
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p.119 #11 · p.119 #11 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


molson wrote:
I did clarify that first part by showing the 6D is as bad, or possibly worse... but I also looked back through my 5D Mark III and 1Dx files, and with similar exposure value ranges (4-5 stops) both of those cameras showed less obvious and smaller-patterened banding.

Do you think I drew those lines on the image in Photoshop?


Your A7r pushes in this thread are more than 5EV (I can tell by the purple tint in the shadows, which only starts to occur beyond +7EV pushes), and the 5DM3/1DX will show noticeably more noise and banding than the A7r at equivalent exposures and exposure pushes.

5DM3 pushed 5EV:
5DM3, ISO 100, -5EV (Orig)
5DM3, ISO 100, -5EV, Pushed 5EV in LR

6D pushed 5EV:
6D, ISO 100, -5EV (Orig)
6D, ISO 100, -5EV, Pushed 5EV in LR

D800 pushed 5EV:
D800, ISO 100, -5EV (Orig)
D800, ISO 100, -5EV, Pushed 5EV in LR

A7r pushed 5EV:
A7r, ISO 100, -5EV (Orig)
A7r, ISO 100, -5EV, Pushed 5EV in LR



Aug 04, 2014 at 03:20 PM
molson
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p.119 #12 · p.119 #12 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


snapsy wrote:
Your A7r pushes in this thread are more than 5EV (I can tell by the purple tint in the shadows, which only starts to occur beyond +7EV pushes), and the 5DM3/1DX will show noticeably more noise and banding than the A7r at equivalent exposures and exposure pushes.



Good guess, but actually the shots from the church interior are only pushed 2.5 EV in LR5.6. The shadow slider is set at 90. This amount of manipulation is trivial for the Nikon D800E.

The other examples are pushed 4.0 EV (A7R) and 3.5 EV (EOS 6D) which I would never normally do - it was just a way of demonstrating the problem more clearly.


If this is a sensor problem, I wonder if it's something Sony would (or could) fix?

I wish I hadn't seen this, because I was relatively happy with the camera's image quality up until then...



Aug 04, 2014 at 05:08 PM
snapsy
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p.119 #13 · p.119 #13 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


molson wrote:
Good guess, but actually the shots from the church interior are only pushed 2.5 EV in LR5.6. The shadow slider is set at 90. This amount of manipulation is trivial for the Nikon D800E.

The other examples are pushed 4.0 EV (A7R) and 3.5 EV (EOS 6D) which I would never normally do - it was just a way of demonstrating the problem more clearly.

If this is a sensor problem, I wonder if it's something Sony would (or could) fix?

I wish I hadn't seen this, because I was relatively happy with the camera's image quality up until then...


If you're pushing both the exposure and shadow sliders than the effective EV push is more than what's being quoted. The noise in both your A7r and 6D images is indicative of a much higher EV adjustment than what's being quoted.



Aug 04, 2014 at 05:45 PM
molson
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p.119 #14 · p.119 #14 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


snapsy wrote:
If you're pushing both the exposure and shadow sliders than the effective EV push is more than what's being quoted. The noise in both your A7r and 6D images is indicative of a much higher EV adjustment than what's being quoted.


Like I said, this level of adjustment is trivial for a Nikon D800E (I just tried it on a few images) so there is either a problem with my camera, or the Sony sensors are no better than the Canon sensors everybody loves to complain about.



Aug 04, 2014 at 06:13 PM
mttran
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p.119 #15 · p.119 #15 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


molson wrote:
Like I said, this level of adjustment is trivial for a Nikon D800E (I just tried it on a few images) so there is either a problem with my camera, or the Sony sensors are no better than the Canon sensors everybody loves to complain about.


i knew soon or later you are going to say this...i've googled internet and the only banding complain is the last two pages. Two of mine work fine and the sensor is much better than anything i have owned from canon.



Aug 04, 2014 at 06:59 PM
retrofocus
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p.119 #16 · p.119 #16 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


molson wrote:
..... or the Sony sensors are no better than the Canon sensors everybody loves to complain about.


Can you still sleep well knowing that a better technology is implemented in other than your favored Canon cameras? On a serious note, yes, I think your camera might have a problem if it is true what you stated. Can happen - send it in or use the warranty if still valid. Best luck.




Aug 04, 2014 at 09:49 PM
Matt Grum
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p.119 #17 · p.119 #17 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Matt Grum wrote:
So you want to raise the ISO enough so you can see what you're shooting, but not too much that you risk clipping any highlights in the scene. This is where zebras come in really handy. Use the most conservative zebra setting you can (80% or something like that) set your creative controls (aperture and shutter-speed) to whatever values you want/need and then spin the ISO up (I suggest using the wheel on the back) until you see the zebras in the viewfinder. Then you'll be able to see what you're doing whilst keeping several stops of headroom in
...Show more

------------------

retrofocus wrote:
I tried to verify your suggestion on my A7R with MF lens today, but it didn't work. The zebra was independent from the ISO number. It didn't change the pattern or amount when I increased or decreased the ISO number.


You need to have "Live View Setting Effect" turned on, that way you see the effects of things like exposure, Depth of Field etc. live in the viewfinder / LCD screen. One of the big advantages of having an EVF in the first place.




Aug 14, 2014 at 02:32 PM
retrofocus
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p.119 #18 · p.119 #18 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Matt Grum wrote:
------------------

You need to have "Live View Setting Effect" turned on, that way you see the effects of things like exposure, Depth of Field etc. live in the viewfinder / LCD screen. One of the big advantages of having an EVF in the first place.



Thanks so much, Matt - I found now how it worked: I already had the LiveView Setting Effect turned on, but the trick was to use the camera in M mode. I had it set in the A mode, and there it doesn't work because it also automatically adjusts the exposure time depending on the selected ISO number. In M mode it works exactly as you described - changing the ISO at a given aperture and exposure time changes the highlights (obviously). The Zebra is then a good tool to determine potential overexposure. I will play around with it a bit more!



Aug 15, 2014 at 12:12 AM
tsdevine
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p.119 #19 · p.119 #19 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses



You can still use zebra (I do) in A or S mode, just dial in some exposure compensation. You'll see the feedback here as well.

-Tim



Aug 15, 2014 at 09:47 PM
retrofocus
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p.119 #20 · p.119 #20 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Tim, I checked again, yes, in A mode you can see the effect by changing the over/underexposure setting. But in this mode it is different with the ISO number what Matt pointed out earlier since the exposure is always adjusted accordingly. To use it in A mode together with the ISO number change, I need to select the ISO first (plus lens aperture), use under/overexposure to then adjust the highlights (meaning the exposure time is adjusted). I cannot just rotate the wheel and change the ISO number quickly to reduce the zebra highlights as I need do it in the M mode (here I keep exposure/aperture constant and adjust the highlights through change of ISO). Since I often stay at a constant lower ISO number, the method you suggested is more practical for me. Thanks for the hint!


Aug 15, 2014 at 10:27 PM
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