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Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
  
 
ulrikft2
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p.79 #1 · p.79 #1 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


cputeq wrote:
It is not about forcing one to use a touch screen, but allowing the option. Your "prosumer" argument also fails when you look at the other "craptastic trends" included with the camera -- tilt LCD, auto modes ON THE DIAL, video, that damned autofocus stuff too!!

Not everyone walks around with sweaty or frozen fingers, and when looking at the NEX line, the models without a touch screen are usually dinged for its exclusion because (gasp) they are useful to have.


I don't mind, you mind. That's life. I've never felt the need for a touch screen on my camera, for me they could have excluded the screen entirely.



Nov 18, 2013 at 02:03 PM
Emacs
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p.79 #2 · p.79 #2 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


ulrikft2 wrote:
I don't mind, you mind. That's life. I've never felt the need for a touch screen on my camera, for me they could have excluded the screen entirely.

Just turn it off and be happy, if you don't have a room for touchscreen in your workflow. No need to exclude back screen.



Nov 18, 2013 at 02:10 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.79 #3 · p.79 #3 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


tsdevine wrote:
I wonder if any further attempt to dampen the sound from the shutter would have resulted in more vibration. Meaning sound can cause vibration, but transferring the vibration to the chassis might cause more.

Now I'm into the pure conjecture phase of the hype.

-Tim


It's going to be interesting to see how this variable plays out in actual use. With a larger FF focal plane shutter and a very small and light body, I highly suspect folks will simply have to use a higher hand held shutter speed than even might be used with a similar DSLR of the same resolution (D800). I also suspect Sony is going to end up selling a lot of those battery grips to add weight and bulk for more stable shooting, particularly needed for many adapted SLR lenses (which are going to be somewhat un wildly hand held on this camera).

I know it would have upset a lot of folks as far as lens adaptability, but had this system used leaf shutter lenses, it sure would have made a difference in both the sound level and vibration characteristics. Now, it would be really cool if Sony introduced a few leaf shutter lenses, as has been done with MF focal plane based systems. That would really offer the best of both worlds.



Nov 18, 2013 at 02:12 PM
ulrikft2
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p.79 #4 · p.79 #4 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Emacs wrote:
Just turn it off and be happy, if you don't have a room for touchscreen in your workflow. No need to exclude back screen.


Added complexity and technology adds to price and adds to things that can go wrong... But why are you here anyway, you obviously hate the idea of this cam?



Nov 18, 2013 at 02:12 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.79 #5 · p.79 #5 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


naturephoto1 wrote:
My guess is that when most of us get our cameras and start to use them quirks and idiosyncrasies and all that...

Hey, it's honeymoon time right now when all we can do is mostly look from afar. Enjoy the feeling while it lasts, I say.



Nov 18, 2013 at 02:20 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.79 #6 · p.79 #6 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


uhoh7 wrote:
But was that the A7r shutter or the A7 shutter?


I don't feel the A7r shutter is louder than the A7 so much as it is longer in duration.

Comparing the A7r shutter to the GXR I brought with me, I found shutter noise somewhat louder than the GXR/M and less noisy compared to a full sized DLSR.



Nov 18, 2013 at 02:29 PM
artur5
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p.79 #7 · p.79 #7 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I doubt that the A7r will need faster shutter speeds than a DSLR to avoid blur, as it doesn't has a slapping mirror. Of course, an electronic shutter will be, eventually, the end of all noises and vibrations.
The Ricoh GXR has the option of enabling electronic first and second curtain and it works well, although they advise to disabled it with the highest speeds and/or fast moving subjects.
Another question that puzzles me is that the A7, even with EFCS disabled, seems more quiet than the A7r. Considering that the syncro flash of the A7 is 1/250" vs 1/160" for the A7r, isn't that a contradiction?. Usually, faster moving curtains (A7) are noisier.



Nov 18, 2013 at 02:42 PM
Emacs
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p.79 #8 · p.79 #8 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


ulrikft2 wrote
Added complexity and technology adds to price and adds to things that can go wrong... But why are you here anyway, you obviously hate the idea of this cam?

I don't like this this particular implementation. Sony are masters of spoiling things:
1) Stupid auto iso implementation (too restrictive maximal ISO, no way to set up minimal shutter speed). Trivial implementation.
2) No DOF or at least focusing distance markings tool (must have for my purposes, so any optics without distance or DOF scale is excluded: no E-mount lenses for me, at least up to 50-60mm). Trivial implementation.
3) I still didn't get an idea how they managed to spoil 2nd wheel in NEX 5r/6. It is practically useless. Trivial implementation.
etc

Personally, I'm waiting for further sensors advancements: photodiode closer to color filter that will help to relieve oblique rays problem (organic, BSI CMOS, etc) , electronic shutter, etc. A7's and A7r's performance with my leica asph optics is too bad. And it is not only underperformed with these lenses — I also dislike their look and feel.

BTW, I have a question for A7/7r owners:
With RX1 and RX100 I could set subject tracking mode, which is the superior substitute for focus-recompose: mark an object, recompose, magnify, focus. Is this function available with manual lenses? IMO it is greater than touchscreen for precise focusing: works for EVF, faster and doesn't ruin framing.




Nov 18, 2013 at 02:52 PM
freaklikeme
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p.79 #9 · p.79 #9 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


philip_pj wrote:
'Not every shooter in the world has been dying to get their hands on a sub-7k FF mirrorless. etc'

sure, sure..but..I mean would you go stand outside a BMW showroom as they unveiled a new model inside and hold up a sign with what you see as problems with the car in the faces of willing buyers ?

'Hey people, it only comes in dark red, I need light red!'
'the auto trans is only six speed, harumph.'



No, but that's hardly analogous to posting in an on-line forum and upsetting the faithful's apparently fragile sense of self.



Nov 18, 2013 at 02:59 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.79 #10 · p.79 #10 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


artur5 wrote:
Another question that puzzles me is that the A7, even with EFCS disabled, seems more quiet than the A7r. Considering that the syncro flash of the A7 is 1/250" vs 1/160" for the A7r, isn't that a contradiction?. Usually, faster moving curtains (A7) are noisier.


Lacking an EFCS option, the A7r moves the blades two cycles opposed to the A7's one cycle.

One supposes the physical shutter mechanism is exactly the same in the two cameras, although the A7r making more movements perhaps is built to a higher spec.

Regardless, assuming roughly similar construction (logical) one cycle of movement generates less noise than two cycles of movement. Two cycles of movement takes more time hence the lower flash sync speed and two cycles of movement generates a longer duration of noise that leaves the impression that it is louder.

Breakout the decibel meters!

DSLR shooters coming to the A7 / A7r cameras as their first mirrorless camera may not appreciate that the sensor is always uncovered while the camera is on but not in a shutter cycle, quite a different situation than for a mirror reflex camera (except when in 'live-view') where the shutter is closed behind the mirror.



Nov 18, 2013 at 03:29 PM
 

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artur5
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p.79 #11 · p.79 #11 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


michaelwatkins wrote:
Lacking an EFCS option, the A7r moves the blades two cycles opposed to the A7's one cycle.

One supposes the physical shutter mechanism is exactly the same in the two cameras, although the A7r making more movements perhaps is built to a higher spec.

Regardless, assuming roughly similar construction (logical) one cycle of movement generates less noise than two cycles of movement. Two cycles of movement takes more time hence the lower flash sync speed and two cycles of movement generates a longer duration of noise that leaves the impression that it is louder.
Breakout the decibel meters!
DSLR shooters coming to
...Show more

Sorry, Michael, I think that a different sync flash speed has nothing to do with the EFC. You can disable EFC on the A7 and the sync speed will be the same - i.e. 1/250". The sync. flash is only related to the time employed by the shutter curtains to travel across the frame. (It might be different If both curtains were electronic).
Therefore, my conclusion that the mechanical shutter of the A7 is faster than that of the A7r and, in all logic, it should be also louder. Instead, according to all the testers, the A7.-WITH EFC DISABLED- is less noisier than the A7r.
Anyway, to me the noise is a minor quibble, but the delay caused by the extra two cycles of the first curtain to close and open is more annoying. I've been spoiled the last couple of years by the near zero delay.of the GXR and NEX-7.



Nov 18, 2013 at 04:02 PM
uhoh7
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p.79 #12 · p.79 #12 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


cputeq wrote:
A7r to me sounds almost exactly like a NEX-5N or maybe A77 if they had to use a double-cock of the shutter (instead of EFCS), which the A7r does. This is from multiple sound videos, though, not hands-on.



It can't be as quiet as the 5n with elec front curtain on.

The 5n is half the volume as the original nex-5.

If it's even close to the 5n then this issue has been overblown.

which is truly shocking.



Nov 18, 2013 at 07:57 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.79 #13 · p.79 #13 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


uhoh7 wrote:
If it's even close to the 5n then this issue has been overblown.

which is truly shocking.


Issues reported before cameras are fully in the wild are never overblown, are they?

I'm not expecting the cameras to be perfect, just hugely useful. I can live with that.



Nov 18, 2013 at 08:00 PM
sebboh
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p.79 #14 · p.79 #14 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


uhoh7 wrote:
It can't be as quiet as the 5n with elec front curtain on.

The 5n is half the volume as the original nex-5.

If it's even close to the 5n then this issue has been overblown.

which is truly shocking.


i've always found the 5N sound to be quite loud, it can certainly draw attention in a quietish room. it isn't louder than most dslrs, but it does seem to have a sharper more metallic sound than most dslrs. the mirror seems to add a bit of low frequency noise to the operation making the sound less alien. or maybe people are just more used to hearing the krrr-thunk of a mirror so it does surprise them as much.

in any event, i'm sure the noise will annoy me, but it won't be different in that respect than any other focal plane shutter camera i've owned.




Nov 18, 2013 at 08:08 PM
John P Mulgrew
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p.79 #15 · p.79 #15 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Can't wait for the A7r to hit the streets. I asked about using the viewfinder when shooting tethered in an earlier post and someone said you could but I thought I read that when shooting tethered there would be no live view and you would have to use an app on your computer for focusing. Doesn't the viewfinder use live view for this camera? I'm hoping I read it wrong.


Nov 19, 2013 at 02:57 AM
philip_pj
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p.79 #16 · p.79 #16 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I looked around the web for a comprehensive Db test of various shutter noise levels but failed. Didn't find more than two references on the now infamous 'a7r mushy numb shutter release' either, except that is, from here.

Plus some m43 guy...but they get a generous factual information discount from me at present. 'No IBIS, AF misses!' and so on and so forth. Deal killers in all directions, hah, people just need the semblance a reason not to believe. Just don't look at the images, guys.



Nov 19, 2013 at 05:34 AM
lostinjapan
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p.79 #17 · p.79 #17 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I compared the shutter last night on the A7r, the 5D3, the (soon to be sold) 5D2 and the x-pro1. The XP1 was by far the quietest off the four, the Canons were the loudest with the Sony in the middle. It certainly sounds much different from either the Canons or the Fuji, but it is certainly not that loud. If you want quiet get a Fuji X-100s, but the A7r is not bad at all.

Ryan



Nov 19, 2013 at 06:01 AM
uhoh7
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p.79 #18 · p.79 #18 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


lostinjapan wrote:
I compared the shutter last night on the A7r, the 5D3, the (soon to be sold) 5D2 and the x-pro1. The XP1 was by far the quietest off the four, the Canons were the loudest with the Sony in the middle. It certainly sounds much different from either the Canons or the Fuji, but it is certainly not that loud. If you want quiet get a Fuji X-100s, but the A7r is not bad at all.

Ryan

That's super helpful Ryan,

Thank You.



Nov 19, 2013 at 06:09 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.79 #19 · p.79 #19 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


philip_pj wrote:
Didn't find more than two references on the now infamous 'a7r mushy numb shutter release' either, except that is, from here.


That was from Pekka Potka Philip. Here is where I read that:

http://www.pekkapotka.com/journal/2013/11/11/tempted-by-the-sony-a7r.html

"There are three possible explanations for so many shaken images with A7R. The first being of course me. The other ones are A7R´s mushy shutter button and noisy shutter. Actually there was only two things I did not actually like in A7R, the first being the shutter button which has no feel to it. You just have to press and press and then somewhere along the way it releases the shutter. Also it was very difficult to find the point where to raise the button up for another shot while keeping the same auto-settings. The shutter is very noisy and it sounds like some spring-loaded mechanism going on."

We have at least one FM member here who has mentioned he had to "jab" at the shutter when handling the camera due to it's poor shutter button feel.

Other reviewers (most) have continuously mentioned the disappointing sound signature of the A7r shutter and most of those have been overly ecstatic on the camera overall. From the Camera Store video review to Steve Huff as well as from many others who have handled the camera. I guess we will be hearing first hand FM experiences soon. It very well could just be shock at the sound given the size of the camera or previous expectations based on other mirror-less camera shutter sounds.



Nov 19, 2013 at 01:45 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.79 #20 · p.79 #20 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Lots of comments on Steve Huff's articles about how this camera, which is too short for my entire hand to fit on the grip, is too big. Why? Because their pursuit as "photographers" is "street photography" and they need a camera their "subjects" won't notice. They admit it. THEY ADMIT IT.

How is that not a parole violation? Are these guys who aren't on the registry yet?



Nov 19, 2013 at 04:31 PM
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