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Archive 2013 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless

  
 
mco_970
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p.152 #1 · p.152 #1 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


miklar wrote:
That looks bad
I've not been able to replicate this problem with either Nikon's or native lenses. However, since all of my test shots have been done hand-held at shutter speeds of 1/40 sec or faster, is it possible this problem occurs primarily during long exposures... ?



Well, it is completely possible that the issue is exacerbated with that specific lens (Cron 50-R), as it is adapted to Nikon.

And as always, my test results probably won't apply to anyone else in the universe, so don't extrapolate too much from them.

I expect this generalized flare issue is probably what I was seeing with the adapted Rok 14, too.



Dec 31, 2013 at 02:01 PM
dbehrens
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p.152 #2 · p.152 #2 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


mco_970 wrote:
I decided to give the A7 one last hurrah before I send it back, and try a different Nikon adapter since thats the main thing I have not liked about the camera (adapted lenses, my reason for trying it anyway).

I setup and noticed some pretty distinct internal reflections, even w/ the hood extended on my 'Cron 50-R. I test it with a Novoflex > Canon > NEX adapter and also with a Fotodiox Pro > NEX adapter, just because I could (I know, stacked adapters are a crapshoot). The Novoflex combo had less reflections, but the corners are not nearly
...Show more

I had the same experience with my Leica 35-70R f/4 on A7r. Crisp at 35mm, major internal flare at 50mm and a lessor flare at 70mm. I tried my Leica 35-70R f/3.5 and it also flared around the same range - but not so bad. So I thought I had an adapter problem. (It is a cheap HK version). But then I tried my Angenieux 35-70 f/2.5 that is also Leica R mount and there was no flare. So I'm scratching my head on this (and somewhat bummed as I really like the Leica 35-70's on my Canon SLR's).
Dave

Leica 35-70R f/4 at 35mm
http://www.pbase.com/dbehrens/image/153974037/original.jpg
Leica 35-70R f/4 at 50mm
http://www.pbase.com/dbehrens/image/153974038/original.jpg
Leica 35-70R f/4 at 70mm
http://www.pbase.com/dbehrens/image/153974059/original.jpg



Dec 31, 2013 at 02:09 PM
miklar
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p.152 #3 · p.152 #3 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Toothwalker wrote:
If you factor in the speed of light - no.





Dec 31, 2013 at 02:28 PM
miklar
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p.152 #4 · p.152 #4 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


mco_970 wrote:
Well, it is completely possible that the issue is exacerbated with that specific lens (Cron 50-R), as it is adapted to Nikon.

And as always, my test results probably won't apply to anyone else in the universe, so don't extrapolate too much from them.

I expect this generalized flare issue is probably what I was seeing with the adapted Rok 14, too.


If you main purpose for this camera is to use it with non native lenses and your existing adapters, it would be wise to give up on it.
My main reason for being wary of this issue is to find it's soft spot and get to know how to avoid this problem when situations where it might be problematic are encountered.
The closes I came to what might be considered a slight light smear was when pointing the lens into a bright light-source, locating it to the upper left corner of the frame. This did show a slight flair, but not a reflection. To see if this can also be replicated with a DSLR with similar settings I shot the same scene with a Nikon D3x and 24-70 f/2.8, it too showed a slight flair, but to a lesser degree.
At this stage, although will still do more testing, I'm reasonably satisfied that with native lenses this issue, when encountered, may well be due to other factors.
Cheers



Dec 31, 2013 at 02:37 PM
shelt
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p.152 #5 · p.152 #5 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I had exactly the same issue with my Contax g90. It was fine on the NEX-6 & 7, but had massive internal reflections on the a7. It turns out it was the smooth black surface of the interior adapter barrel. Even though it looks "black" it caused the issue. I experimented with black gaffers tape until I figured it out! I have a metabones on the way...


Dec 31, 2013 at 03:04 PM
tennclay
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p.152 #6 · p.152 #6 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


mco_970 wrote:
I decided to give the A7 one last hurrah before I send it back, and try a different Nikon adapter since thats the main thing I have not liked about the camera (adapted lenses, my reason for trying it anyway).

I setup and noticed some pretty distinct internal reflections, even w/ the hood extended on my 'Cron 50-R. I test it with a Novoflex > Canon > NEX adapter and also with a Fotodiox Pro > NEX adapter, just because I could (I know, stacked adapters are a crapshoot). The Novoflex combo had less reflections, but the corners are not nearly
...Show more

FWIW, I used a Summicron-R 50 with a Metabones adapter and saw no such problem on the A7r.



Dec 31, 2013 at 03:14 PM
philip_pj
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p.152 #7 · p.152 #7 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


The camera facing side of Sony's LA-EA series adapters are a very flat matt black. Everywhere. All of it. Even the lens mount is well recessed behind the front extent of the adapter.

Never say never of course...but it's summer here and few readers have seen anything approaching the ferocity of the inland Australian sun in summer. Hundreds of exposures, no flares.

Adapter technology has to catch up. Sony's adapters seem to already be where they need to be.



Dec 31, 2013 at 04:36 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.152 #8 · p.152 #8 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I also had reflection issues with G90, for most scenes it was OK, but on this and few others there were slight flare when closing down. In this series there seems to be some kind of magenta horizontal reflection at mid height of image and arch shaped milder reflection (white "colored"?) at bottom of image. :

I can't see anything in f/2.8 and f/4 images but f/5.6 there is some, and more in f/8 and clearly visible in f/11.

I tried to figure out what causes this, and my theory is that it's the original lens mount and maybe electronic connections of the lens. I happened to have some black Sugru (see http://www.sugru.com ), so I molded it into share to block the lens mount and connector:

First photo shows how the original lens mount visible to sensor (adapter is connected to lens).
Second photo is same after Sugru.
Third photo from angle and overexposed to show the Sugru pushed between adapter and lens.

If it's not raining tomorrow I'll go does it improve the situation. The issue has been very odd since it's visible in only few of the aperture series I have shoot with the lens - and there has been situations, where I have expected this to happen and it didn't. And it happens in situations like the series shown above, where I definitely can't understand what is causing it.

Samuli



Dec 31, 2013 at 04:42 PM
dbehrens
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p.152 #9 · p.152 #9 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


shelt wrote:
I had exactly the same issue with my Contax g90. It was fine on the NEX-6 & 7, but had massive internal reflections on the a7. It turns out it was the smooth black surface of the interior adapter barrel. Even though it looks "black" it caused the issue. I experimented with black gaffers tape until I figured it out! I have a metabones on the way...


I think you are right! My long barrel LR-Nex adaptor is all black but it's not super flat and therefore still reflects light. I already see where Samuli's application of Sugru is knocking out this internal reflection. Looks like mystery may be solved. Will work on alternative solution and report back. THANKS!
Dave



Dec 31, 2013 at 04:54 PM
tsdevine
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p.152 #10 · p.152 #10 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless



Good question. I hope it's the one with the grip extension, but it's not shown on the actual a7 product page.

-Tim

kroyston wrote:
So which L-brackets do you think you will receive? The one shown in the photo attached to the A7 with the grip extension, or the one on the product page without the extension?




Dec 31, 2013 at 05:06 PM
shelt
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p.152 #11 · p.152 #11 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Here's a before and after with a cheap Fotodiox Contax g to NEX adapter. The only difference is that the black interior barrel of my adapter was covered with matte black gaffers tape. Note the sun was nowhere near the frame, and the lens had a full hood on!


Fotodiox Contax g - NEX Adapter Mods by shelt59, on Flickr



Dec 31, 2013 at 05:15 PM
mco_970
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p.152 #12 · p.152 #12 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Dbehrens - on your Leica examples, what adapter are you using? I am trying to decide if it's worth it to try a Metabones adapter instead of Fotodiox Pro. The Fotodiox has a bunch of internal 'rings' and will be a pain to cover up.

I guess the reflections could also be on the lens mount (Leitax > Nikon).





Dec 31, 2013 at 05:51 PM
Taylor Sherman
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p.152 #13 · p.152 #13 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Oh hmm, yes in the case of the G90, it does have a very reflective "backside" that normally wasn't exposed at all on the G cameras. So that makes sense. Though, what's the light initially reflecting off of, if not the sensor? (happens with the sun out of frame, so it can't be hitting the sensor initially).

I don't recall ever seeing this with the Nex, and the back-of-lens situation was the same.



Dec 31, 2013 at 06:13 PM
mco_970
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p.152 #14 · p.152 #14 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Taylor Sherman wrote:
Oh hmm, yes in the case of the G90, it does have a very reflective "backside" that normally wasn't exposed at all on the G cameras. So that makes sense. Though, what's the light initially reflecting off of, if not the sensor? (happens with the sun out of frame, so it can't be hitting the sensor initially).

I don't recall ever seeing this with the Nex, and the back-of-lens situation was the same.


I dunno what it reflects off of, but I took a bare lens and held it obliquely to a bright reflection this afternoon, and I could make a flare spot show up on my hand. I tried this with a couple of different lenses. This was with the lens pointed inside my house where it was not bright, but there were bright reflections on the side that the glass was picking up.

I don't know how to explain it, nor do I know how to take a picure of it when I am holding the lens

But I did see the lens without any adapter picking up a bit of strong side light and reflecting it out through the rear element. My adapter that gives less trouble is flat black on the inside. As well the OM50 - which has not had issues - is Leitaxed to Canon and the metal on it is all painted a flat black.

So it's kind of looking like a solvable issue. Ahhhhh, hope springs eternal.



Dec 31, 2013 at 06:23 PM
shelt
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p.152 #15 · p.152 #15 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Taylor Sherman wrote:
Oh hmm, yes in the case of the G90, it does have a very reflective "backside" that normally wasn't exposed at all on the G cameras. So that makes sense. Though, what's the light initially reflecting off of, if not the sensor? (happens with the sun out of frame, so it can't be hitting the sensor initially).

I don't recall ever seeing this with the Nex, and the back-of-lens situation was the same.


Very good question. It's such a strong reflection off the interior barrel that I think it must be from the primary incoming light. Perhaps the image circle is a little bigger than FF and reflects back on to the edges of the sensor? The g35, OTOH, does not have any reflection issues with the same adapter, even when pointed near the sun.

Prior to blacking out the adapter barrel, I tried blacking out the g90 brass contacts and shiny lens base to no avail. All the reflections are coming from the adapter barrel, whether primary or secondary. I doubt if they are sensor reflections in this case because they are SO bright, and only occur with rare lens/adapter combos. This effect is different than the nighttime internal reflections around bright objects, which seem to occur in both NEX's and the a7/r. Those seem to be some sort of sensor based reflection issue.

It's really odd. I noticed the "reflection flare" in almost every g90 shot I took, then saw online shots from the same combo that seemed fine. So...I focused on the adapter as being the issue.

I ordered the metabones because it seems to have a very nice matte internal coating. We'll see how it does when it arrives later this week...



Dec 31, 2013 at 06:41 PM
douglasf13
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p.152 #16 · p.152 #16 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


FWIW, occasional internal flare can also be an issue with the newer (non APO) 50 Summicron-M, even on M cameras. I've read about users sending the lens back to Leica to blacken some of the internal parts, which apparently solves the issue.


Dec 31, 2013 at 07:20 PM
miklar
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p.152 #17 · p.152 #17 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


After multiple attempts I've finally proven to myself there are flares generated with the A7r to a much greater extent than what happens with a DSLR.
The good news, the flares are infinitely more visible, before shooting, on the A7r than what can be seen on the live monitor with the D3x.
Please excuse the subject matter and the out of focus D3x images, it's a rush job

Happy New Year everybody

Edit:
Similar tests done during daylight did not show this problem, only when the background was darker as in the images below where the primary light in the background is from the Christmas tree.
As can be seen the flare was caused by a bright light shining directly onto the lens. While the images with flares don’t show the light source this light actually is in line sight with the lens when viewed from it.
Lens hoods were used in both cases.






A7r with the FS55 lens wide open f/1.8 at ISO 100







D3x with a 24-70 f/2.8, wide open at ISO200



Edited on Jan 01, 2014 at 11:10 AM · View previous versions



Dec 31, 2013 at 09:57 PM
dbehrens
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p.152 #18 · p.152 #18 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


mco_970 wrote:
Dbehrens - on your Leica examples, what adapter are you using? I am trying to decide if it's worth it to try a Metabones adapter instead of Fotodiox Pro. The Fotodiox has a bunch of internal 'rings' and will be a pain to cover up.

I guess the reflections could also be on the lens mount (Leitax > Nikon).




Its a cheap ebay adapter from Big Is. While its cheap it fits very solid with no play and has 6 screws holding the faceplate. I notice its a longer tube (about 29mm) than my other long tube adapters (EOS & Nikon). It also has what I would call a semi-gloss black metal finish inside that allows some reflection. I did a quick test of using two adapters - a Leica R to EOS and EOS to Nex (that was a little more flat black and ribbed instead of polished on the inside) and did not notice any internal flare. However it was almost sundown so I need to retest in stronger light. I think its the combination of a longer tube with any capacity of reflecting light that is the culprit.



Dec 31, 2013 at 10:18 PM
mco_970
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p.152 #19 · p.152 #19 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Thanks - please let me know how it goes.

I took my OM50 out and shot it wide open and at f/2 this evening into some bright light at dusk... Could not see any odd flaring. Funky bokeh, yes. Flare Spirits, no.







Thank you, DR and shadow pushing.




Dec 31, 2013 at 10:37 PM
kroyston
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p.152 #20 · p.152 #20 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


As I mentioned I haven't noticed any unusual flaring with the A7. The OM and G adapters I have, a Kipon and ebay cheapy have groved barrels which are painted black. I'll take the G90 flare hunting tomorrow... snow is in the forecast so not the best conditions.


Dec 31, 2013 at 10:59 PM
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