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Archive 2013 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
  
 
Tariq Gibran
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p.128 #1 · p.128 #1 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


snapsy wrote:
The Exmor has exceptionally low read noise but it takes very little noise to dither shadow gradations, esp when you consider how few raw bits are needed to represent shadow tonations in the first place (ie, noise precludes the need for extra tonal representation).


Thanks.



Dec 12, 2013 at 02:50 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.128 #2 · p.128 #2 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


arbitrage wrote:
Pointless....just use a D800E if you are going to attach giant lenses...IMHO

How? First; I don't own one. Second; it's live view implementation sucks and I don't use optical viewfinders? Third; I have all my lenses on EF mount or shorter lens mount to sensor distance. Just going out to shoot with few Canon FL/FD lenses...try to do that with D800E...

Also since I shoot with 2-3 bodies, it would be damn expensive to get 3x D800E and absolute no change of flying (weight regulations) with such camera backbag... A7 is really cheap, basically just price of one medium quality lens (new).

Everybody isn't looking for the same thing. Personally I see people who try to get symmetrical wide angle lenses (=high ray angle) to work with A7(r) pointless, but that just my opinion.

Samuli



Dec 12, 2013 at 04:35 PM
darbo
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p.128 #3 · p.128 #3 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


arbitrage wrote:
Pointless....just use a D800E if you are going to attach giant lenses...IMHO

I don't see why this is pointless. Relatively speaking how is a relatively large lens on an A7/R that much different than a relatively large lens (most telephotos) on a D800E?


Edited on Dec 12, 2013 at 04:55 PM · View previous versions



Dec 12, 2013 at 04:52 PM
sebboh
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p.128 #4 · p.128 #4 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


theSuede wrote:
Most gradation and posterizing problems users have are related to bad camera and screen profiles, and raw converters not handling color profiles correctly in communication with the OS, this goes for both Win and OSX.


that's good to hear. what do you think about the example i posted (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1247655/125#11996189). snapsy was kind enough to look at the raw file and reports that there are large gaps in tone data in the raw data, especially in the red channel that start in the midtones (not just in the shadow areas). i would be delighted if this is something that could be remedied by using a different color profile as it seems to come up semi-regularly when i include large sections of blue sky in the frame.



Dec 12, 2013 at 04:54 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.128 #5 · p.128 #5 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


sebboh wrote:
snapsy was kind enough to look at the raw file and reports that there are large gaps in tone data in the raw data, especially in the red channel that start in the midtones (not just in the shadow areas). i would be delighted if this is something that could be remedied by using a different color profile as it seems to come up semi-regularly when i include large sections of blue sky in the frame.


That's not good to hear at all. I would think Snapsy looked at the raw data directly with RawDigger maybe? I don't see how a color profile could completely solve missing data in the raw file. At best perhaps a profile could minimize the issue but not solve it completely.



Dec 12, 2013 at 05:36 PM
snapsy
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p.128 #6 · p.128 #6 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Tariq Gibran wrote:
That's not good to hear at all. I would think Snapsy looked at the raw data directly with RawDigger maybe? I don't see how a color profile could completely solve missing data in the raw file. At best perhaps a profile could minimize the issue but not solve it completely.


I used RawDigger but it's not clear to me the gaps I see are related to the perceptual posterization, for a few reasons, one being I don't see any gaps in a 16-bit histogram of the post-demosaiced data. Another reason is I see those same gaps in other RX1 raws that don't result in posterization...so the gaps may just be a function of raw WB scaling/conditioning and not material. I forwarded the raw to theSuede for the final opinion.



Dec 12, 2013 at 05:43 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.128 #7 · p.128 #7 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


snapsy wrote:
I used RawDigger but it's not clear to me the gaps I see are related to the perceptual posterization, for a few reasons, one being I don't see any gaps in a 16-bit histogram of the post-demosaiced data. Another reason is I see those same gaps in other RX1 raws that don't result in posterization...so the gaps may just be a function of raw WB scaling/conditioning and not material. I forwarded the raw to theSuede for the final opinion.


I don't know if it's there are not in the original raw but I doubt you would see gaps in a reconstructed 16 bit histogram regardless because that is created by interpolating (filling in) the missing bits. If the data is not there to begin with, I don't see how it could be accurately recreated (that's the nature of interpolation). In any case, I'm very curious about this.



Dec 12, 2013 at 05:53 PM
zhangyue
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p.128 #8 · p.128 #8 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Me too, I feel the A7 file easily get discontinues in tonality when heavy push/pull while D800e seems way robust.
it is not a big concern in most cases though.



Dec 12, 2013 at 06:11 PM
nandadevieast
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p.128 #9 · p.128 #9 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Sigma told me they will convert my 35/1.4 Nikon mount to Sony A mount free of cost. Weighing the pros and cons of that. That might save me from buying the FE 35...


Dec 12, 2013 at 06:23 PM
snapsy
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p.128 #10 · p.128 #10 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Tariq Gibran wrote:
I don't know if it's there are not in the original raw but I doubt you would see gaps in a reconstructed 16 bit histogram regardless because that is created by interpolating (filling in) the missing bits. If the data is not there to begin with, I don't see how it could be accurately recreated (that's the nature of interpolation). In any case, I'm very curious about this.


That would depend on the linear->gamma function of the raw data, ie the particular tonal region being translated. In other words, I believe the tonal areas themselves wouldn't be interpolated per se but some will be more de-compressed than others based on the tonal value and gamma function.



Dec 12, 2013 at 06:28 PM
 

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philip_pj
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p.128 #11 · p.128 #11 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


'the A7 file easily get discontinues in tonality when heavy push/pull while D800e seems way robust.'

Examples please. I can provide a99 (same everything as a7 that matters to this discussion) that take massive working over until the cows come home.

Now to more important news than what looks like faulty or inadequate profiling, if I have read snapsy right - it's pretty technical:

Adobe have released the final version of LR and ACR for all the new Sonys and lenses:

ACR: http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2013/12/camera-8-3-for-photoshop-cc-and-photoshop-cs6-available-now.html

WIN: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5693&PID=5405341

MAC: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5692&PID=5405341



Dec 12, 2013 at 08:08 PM
philip_pj
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p.128 #12 · p.128 #12 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


'Pointless....just use a D800E if you are going to attach giant lenses'

Why compare these two chalk and cheese cameras? They differ enormously in just everything other than that both take photographs! Size/weight/EVF/properly implemented LV/carry ability/lens lineups/alt lens capability/cost/mass market friendliness, and so on. One is an established old regime and part of history, the other a very promising start to a new future way of doing things.

The question also carries this underlying message that everything the a7r can do a D800e can already do so why use the a7r, for large telephoto usage.

First, arithmetic: 1000 grams plus 1000 grams (our generic telephoto, but so many of Nikon's lenses are in this category, such as the decidely non-telephoto 14-24):

2000 grams in a huge package loads a tripod very heavily - you need a larger and heavier head and pod legs and QR system. But leave that aside too.

2000 grams Nikon, 1470 grams a7r. You save 26%.

Attachments: many telephotos and other huge Nikkors lack a collar, but every such lens that goes on an a7r gets a very nice lens mount on its adapter - see Fred's excellent setup in the Canon a7r thread for details - that actually provides more stability since the lens only stresses the adapter lens mount, whereas the Nikon with many alt teles or even its own struggles along with its body tripod mount and QR system carrying the entire 2000 grams.

Still pointless? How about we factor in a great focus assist/peaking system in the a7r? And how many users never use anything other than a tele lens? I don''t know any...so with a more midweight 600 gram lens we have:

1600 grams Nikon, 970 grams A7r. You now save 52%. More examples with smaller lenses still are not needed. It spells versatility...

Whichever way you cut it, the mainstream Nikons are very obese cameras, and they can never ever shed that excess weight. And size. They work very well for a small sliver of the market IMHO - strong armed sports pros, celeb pros (papparazzi), birders in hides maybe, weddings...these all mostly *sanctioned events*. Other usages? Street? Family? Travel? Hiking?

Then we have the new impetus for compact FF telephoto design that just arrived with the a7 series - since most of us are interested in the future as well as the past. I bet Zeiss and others will enveil plans for shiny and wonderful telephoto lenses before most people's next birthdays...CN never cared for small anything in digital - big is beautiful to them - just like 60's US cars with wings, but that does not mean it cannot be done, just look at some m43 optics and extrapolate up.



Dec 12, 2013 at 08:41 PM
zhangyue
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p.128 #13 · p.128 #13 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


philip_pj wrote:
'the A7 file easily get discontinues in tonality when heavy push/pull while D800e seems way robust.'

Examples please. I can provide a99 (same everything as a7 that matters to this discussion) that take massive working over until the cows come home.



I didn't do any scientific test yet, since that/(technical detail) is not my major concern, but want pass the feeling I have during process the images of A7R. I trust myself on this (based on raw tool I have) but don't want passing false info as fact. So please take this as a grain of salt. I don't want get caught in the middle of battle field.

Only until I saw some recent discuss on this topic hint me the answer for my confusion.

Will do some test later once I have time as I want know as well. I don't have D800E on hand anymore so can't do side by side compassion. I have to reedit one of my recent image from Leica R thread to remove banding in Sky. Maybe is due to too much pull in blue channel, but I don't remember I see the same in M9 file when I do 'pull', which I did all the time in sky.

Another interesting point I found for A7R, the histogram is well within boundary, but highlight detail seems gone,(I can't pull it back) does anyone found this? I will not disregard the possibility of raw converter I use. LR5 beta.

Need more time to finalize my feeling about its file. Please take this as a discuss than conclusion.



Dec 12, 2013 at 09:08 PM
philip_pj
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p.128 #14 · p.128 #14 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Good info, Michael, we will see. Final ACR/LR now ready for downloading.

My other Sonys always do better with less exposure than many users who employ a quasi-ETTR method...you can see a great demo of shadow recovery in the very well-organised and informative Canon a7r thread, which inexplicably has much less sniping from the parapets we see here, lol.

I have never had to lose data at the top end, and seldom lose it all at either end...maybe give a little under-exposure a try. I shoot the brightest light conditions in the world, so feel in a position to have an informed opinion.

Imaging Resource gave it camera of the year and has this say:

'Until now, if you wanted both an interchangeable-lens design and a full-frame sensor with true through-the-lens (TTL) viewing, you needed to buy a big, bulky camera whose form factor was dictated by its mirror box. The high-resolution Sony A7R mirrorless camera changes everything. This full-frame ILC is discreet enough for the street shooter, yet it's capable of capturing astounding detail.'

No, I did not write that.

PS the live feed EVF/LCD histo - which many ex-Nikon people are seeing for the first time - is a reflection of your jpeg settings, you can dial down contrast/sat/creative style (I suggest neutral) to tailor it to your eventual processing preferences.



Dec 12, 2013 at 10:25 PM
philip_pj
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p.128 #15 · p.128 #15 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


For michael and others, me too:

Picked up off the rumors site, have not seen much on the zebra (!) but this might be of use to check out:

'Sony has added Zebras to all of its new cameras. These come from the video world and are far superior to the usual blinkies for over-exposed areas. These can be set to show peak exposure levels at 5% increments from 70% to 100%+. For most photographers setting at 100% will mean than when the stripes appear in part of the image you can dial back the exposure compensation dial to avoid blow-out. Or, a portrait photographer, for example, might set them to 70% or 75% to see when skin tones are getting too light.'



Dec 12, 2013 at 10:55 PM
itai195
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p.128 #16 · p.128 #16 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


snapsy wrote:
Wow, $175. I guess the industry is lining up like pigs at the trough


Yeah... They put up some photos and it looks like it has a feature I haven't seen on any of their other l-plates. There's a wing screw that lets you slide the vertical portion of the bracket away from the side of the camera, presumably to give clearance for the port connections. That's kind of cool, I would've loved that on some of my other cameras.



Dec 13, 2013 at 02:25 AM
charles.K
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p.128 #17 · p.128 #17 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it appears the FE 55/1.8 are shipping now, smaller quantities to begin with. I was in contact with Sony Brisbane, so this is a pleasant surprise. I am looking forward to testing this lens for portraits.

In speaking with the technical rep, he also mentioned a number of people having issues with the dimly lit EVF when shooting outside. Hopefully this is only a firmware fix?




Dec 13, 2013 at 02:27 AM
nandadevieast
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p.128 #18 · p.128 #18 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


The biggest difference between a D800 and the Sony's is not what you can do with one and can not do with the other..its how you do it.

I have to take 4 shots with a DSLR to nail it. In contrast, CDAF of a mirrorless camera is accurate and reliable and you nail it everytime.

With a dslr I have to chimp to see what i just got. With a mirrorless camera, i can see the shot before i can take it.

We already know this. But to me this remains the biggest difference. And now i can get this performance in a full frame camera. Why not?

I sold my OM-D after using it for a year..,but in the process it sold me on the mirrorless way of doing things. A huge step up from a dslr way of doing things. And this very basic difference has been built into every compact camera for years now. So, obvious but better and with the times.

Edited on Dec 13, 2013 at 02:33 AM · View previous versions



Dec 13, 2013 at 02:31 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.128 #19 · p.128 #19 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


charles.K wrote:
In speaking with the technical rep, he also mentioned a number of people having issues with the dimly lit EVF when shooting outside. Hopefully this is only a firmware fix?




It's an EVF thing - they suck in bright dayligt overall but really fail miserably in backlit situations. If it were dimmer than other EVF's, we would certainly have heard about it by now. The folks being surprised by this are probably first time EVF users.


Edited on Dec 13, 2013 at 02:35 AM · View previous versions



Dec 13, 2013 at 02:32 AM
jojomon11
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p.128 #20 · p.128 #20 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


So for you new owners of the A7, how is the battery life, esp. when using LV?

Do you carry a spare with you for daily jaunts?

I never listen to the mfg. info on battery life, it tends to be very very conservative

Thanks!

Phil



Dec 13, 2013 at 02:33 AM
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