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Archive 2013 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless

  
 
itai195
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p.125 #1 · p.125 #1 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


If the A7 is successful, you can bet your hat that Nikon and Canon will copy Sony's formula. Any FF mirrorless has the potential to have a "universal" mount, but that's really a niche feature. Nikon and Canon have the ability to pump out lenses when they're motivated to do so. I have a lot more faith in their ability to do that than in Sony's.

Does that mean it will happen? I don't know. I'm just talking about potential. The fact is that market leaders in many industries have a track record of becoming complacent and reacting to disruption much too slowly. Very few companies are able to overcome that complacency. It will absolutely be a challenge for Nikon and Canon to do so.

I see Fuji as kind of an upstart with fairly little to lose. They are not dependent on their camera business for survival, but they have a history in the industry and are reputation-driven. They've staked their claim to the higher end of the mirrorless market (for the most part). And they also have shown a good propensity for actually ramping up a viable system quickly–the X mount has plenty of lenses and it's not even two years old. I could absolutely see them challenge Sony here. Will it happen? Again, I have no idea... I think they do lack a lot of Sony's marketing and distribution muscle.

Edited on Dec 10, 2013 at 06:53 PM · View previous versions



Dec 10, 2013 at 06:48 PM
davewolfs
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p.125 #2 · p.125 #2 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


If Nikons nuts are so small that they are afraid to put in their "pro" AF into the DF I highly doubt they would be willing to create a mirrorless camera that jeopardizes their DSLR sales. I've got little faith in these giant companies to innovate.


Dec 10, 2013 at 06:51 PM
davewolfs
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p.125 #3 · p.125 #3 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


The real player in all of this is Zeiss.


Dec 10, 2013 at 06:52 PM
Makten
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p.125 #4 · p.125 #4 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


itai195 wrote:
What unique advantage does Sony have other than first mover status?


This:

davewolfs wrote:
The real player in all of this is Zeiss.




Dec 10, 2013 at 06:55 PM
itai195
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p.125 #5 · p.125 #5 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


What's stopping Zeiss from making lenses for other mounts? They already do so.


Dec 10, 2013 at 06:56 PM
davewolfs
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p.125 #6 · p.125 #6 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Nothing is stopping them, they are in a win a win situation. If people are excited about these cameras now imagine if we had a full lineup of zeiss mf and af lenses for the e mount.


Dec 10, 2013 at 07:03 PM
scott bye
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p.125 #7 · p.125 #7 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Does anyone know why I can see white marks on the edges of my subject when I look through the view finder and/or LCD screen?


Dec 10, 2013 at 07:04 PM
sebboh
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p.125 #8 · p.125 #8 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


scott bye wrote:
Does anyone know why I can see white marks on the edges of my subject when I look through the view finder and/or LCD screen?


you have peaking turned on.




Dec 10, 2013 at 07:19 PM
scott bye
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p.125 #9 · p.125 #9 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Thanks


Dec 10, 2013 at 07:20 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.125 #10 · p.125 #10 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


itai195 wrote:
The fact is that market leaders in many industries have a track record of becoming complacent and reacting to disruption much too slowly. Very few companies are able to overcome that complacency. It will absolutely be a challenge for Nikon and Canon to do so.


So far the evidence supports this thinking. Both companies seem to be betting on being able to "market their way out of a bind", if indeed they even feel they are in a bind. Bind or not, they are responding but only with words.

Nikon has their "why would you use this" advert for DSLRs as opposed to other cameras portrayed as tiny or cell phones, implying there is no middle ground. Then again they are depicting photographers hanging from cables to get a shot so its not really clear who they are marketing to as it seems like a fuzzy concept drawing a straight line from pro-on-a-crane to mom-in-a-crowd.

Canon's latest ad (that I've seen) is positioning one of their smaller DSLRs as being, well, small - seemingly a response to inroads by small mirrorless system cameras.



Dec 10, 2013 at 07:28 PM
itai195
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p.125 #11 · p.125 #11 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I know someone who has one of those small Canons. Too bad they don't seem to have made some small APS-C lenses to go with it...


Dec 10, 2013 at 07:32 PM
mco_970
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p.125 #12 · p.125 #12 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Amazon had an open box A7 + lens for $1837 this evening. Decent price if the lens is not decentered.


Dec 10, 2013 at 10:10 PM
Minomaniac
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p.125 #13 · p.125 #13 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


itai195 wrote:
Out of curiosity, does anyone have the vertical battery grip? Any impressions?


I have the A7r with the battery grip. For me it's the key for making the camera usable with SLR lenses. With it attached I can grap the camera with my whole hand and rest a part of the weight on my palm. Turning the camera to vertical position is very easy and fast.
In vertical position the placement of the C3 button suddenly becomes meaningful. In fact I think the designers placed it where it is with the battery grip in mind.
Because the whole package is still relatively small the camera can still be fully operated in vertical position. I can easily reach the AF/MF - AEL switch with my thumb as an example. The extra battery comes in handy too.
So I give the grip a clear recomendation. It will hardly ever come of my camera.



Edited on Dec 11, 2013 at 01:38 AM · View previous versions



Dec 11, 2013 at 01:20 AM
philber
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p.125 #14 · p.125 #14 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


itai195 wrote:
I pointed this out in the A7 poll thread as well, but I do think Thom has a legitimate point when he says "if you bring out a new system and start from scratch with lenses, so can everyone else". Maybe not Olympus, given their financial situation, but there's not much stopping Nikon, Canon, Fuji, etc from competing with Sony on this front. What unique advantage does Sony have other than first mover status?


I think that there is quite a lot stopping Nikon, Canon, Fuji from competing on this front. The obvious point is called sensors. Fuji and Nikon don't make their own. Nikon buy their sensors from Sony. They obviously did a deal on the D800 that prevented Sony from releasing a FF DSLR from using the 36MP type for a while. But Sony are in the driving seat, and Nikon can't force Sony to sell them a sensor if Sony don't want to. And Sony won't want to jeopardize their rise in the camera market. Ditto Fuji. Not that there is a surfeit of other C-MOS sensor manufacturers with a FF offering. Look at the trouble Leica had to go to get theirs for the Type 240. And look at how many times Canon have repackaged the same sensors, apparently because their sensor fab is behind Sony's and they haven't yet made the huge investment for a new fab that would let them compete with the better Sony sensors.

The second advantage is that Sony have been at the mirrorless market for longer, and with more intent. Their card, from the first NEX, was clearly small size, and they have learned lots of tricks from that. NEX experience helped RX, RX experience helped A7. To the extent that Sony arguably own not one but 3 sub-segments in the mirrorless market. One is the best compact camera, due to its large sensor and Zeiss lens (RX 100). Another is the only compact FF camera (RX-1). Then pocketable FF interchangeable lens cameras with A7. Not counting the sales of NEX, where in APS-C sized sensors, there is essentially only Fuji to compete with, and Panalympus if you don't want the largest sensor in class.

The third advantage is that Sony don't have that much to lose in DSLRs as they cannibalize the segment with RX, NEX and A7. The reverse is true for Canikon, who are obviously playing a game of protecting DSLR's (see Canon's latest midget-sized offering, and Nikon's DF) rather than conquering new market share.

That is already quite a lot IMHO, and that doesn't even include the rumour that Sony will be ready in 2015 with a non-Bayer 56Mp FF sensor. In analogue (film) days, making lenses ruled the game because the camera body had little influence on the IQ. The reverse is true in digital. Sensors and related electronics have a huge influence on IQ, so making your own sensors is a key strategic asset. Sony have it, and play it. Canon have it, and don't play it. Nikon don't have it and can't (they are just not large enough to have enough volume for that sort of investment). Fuji and Panasonic could, but just aren't there right now. And Olympus is apparently the worst off, because they are cash poor with a business draining their cash. Eventually, their business will be folded into Sony's, who have already made which, in Japan, spell "takeover".



Dec 11, 2013 at 01:33 AM
philip_pj
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p.125 #15 · p.125 #15 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


'What unique advantage does Sony have other than first mover status?'

It is a big mistake to think CN can kind of click their technological fingers and churn out an a7r beater, or a RX1 beater or the RX100 beater, or whatever Sony's genius designer turns his hand to next year. These are all critical and market successes of some magnitude.

Serious business people use a company's recent track record to gauge its ability to innovate, produce viable goods etc. Just because these makers got it together over 40 years for (D)SLR does not mean they will match Sony in 40 days or 40 months in Sony's arena..

'Nikon and Canon have the ability to pump out lenses when they're motivated to do so.'

This one has attained meme status, closely related to 'Sony might abandon the mount in six months' and 'Canon and Nikon are more reliable' and so on and so forth. And my favourite: 'imagine releasing a camera with only one lens?'

Facts are always interesting in assessing these claims. From my reading Canon released four, yes, four lenses in the last completed year - 2012. Could not find anything related to Nikon's output. Canon also released just four primes 135mm and shorter when they introduced the EOS system in 1987.

Motivation? The DSLR market has lost 20% to mirrorless. If you lost 20% of your income you might be motivated to do what you can to fix the problem.

Sony, as pointed out are not lens makers - merely make the best sensors and pretty good cameras; and leave the lenses for the top end and the RX line to ZEISS, who churn out large numbers of ultra lenses on a continual basis. From mobile phone lenses to Otus and cine.




Dec 11, 2013 at 02:03 AM
itai195
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p.125 #16 · p.125 #16 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


philber wrote:
I think that there is quite a lot stopping Nikon, Canon, Fuji from competing on this front. The obvious point is called sensors. Fuji and Nikon don't make their own. Nikon buy their sensors from Sony. They obviously did a deal on the D800 that prevented Sony from releasing a FF DSLR from using the 36MP type for a while. But Sony are in the driving seat, and Nikon can't force Sony to sell them a sensor if Sony don't want to. And Sony won't want to jeopardize their rise in the camera market.


There's no reason for Sony to stop selling Nikon or anyone else sensors. I would hazard a guess that portion of Sony's business is more profitable than their camera business. Holding back sensors from other manufacturers would be foolish.

The second advantage is that Sony have been at the mirrorless market for longer, and with more intent. Their card, from the first NEX, was clearly small size, and they have learned lots of tricks from that. NEX experience helped RX, RX experience helped A7. To the extent that Sony arguably own not one but 3 sub-segments in the mirrorless market. One is the best compact camera, due to its large sensor and Zeiss lens (RX 100). Another is the only compact FF camera (RX-1). Then pocketable FF interchangeable lens cameras with A7. Not counting the sales of NEX, where in...Show more

I would say Nikon and Canon have a significant advantage that you're ignoring – they know how to design cameras that people actually like to use. The A7 is easily the best Sony camera I've ever used, but it's still kind of amateurish in shooting experience compared to a good DSLR.

The third advantage is that Sony don't have that much to lose in DSLRs as they cannibalize the segment with RX, NEX and A7. The reverse is true for Canikon, who are obviously playing a game of protecting DSLR's (see Canon's latest midget-sized offering, and Nikon's DF) rather than conquering new market share.

Absolutely, this is the big driver of the complacency that I mentioned earlier.



Dec 11, 2013 at 02:19 AM
philip_pj
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p.125 #17 · p.125 #17 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Collaborations are very important to corporations. Production facilities are also limited, and Zeiss have plenty on their hands right now.

These two - Sony and Zeiss - just ticked over 20 years as partners together. They know each other extremely well. In terms of camera output, they are effectively the same company. An RX1 or RX100 and soon an a7r or RX10 without native Zeiss lenses, that is almost unthinkable.

ZEISS announced a range of manual focus FE lenses over two years and Sony promises 15 FE lenses by 2015, 10 by end 2014, quite a few of them made by Zeiss. Another point - people build lens kits over many years. These Zeiss FE lenses are all new and state of the art and custom designed. When people buy them as they appear, they have the best that present technology can provide, at decidely sub-Leica prices.

Sony pushed the a7(r) out the door early precisely because they knew the primary target market - savvy advanced amateurs - had created a high level of demand for just this camera specification. And know how to use adapters for their own cherished and favourite lenses - even Fred is doing this...the a7(r) thread in the Canon forum is now 85 pages long, always on the front page - what do you think they are saying?

You can see the problems they have. In stark terms 'Catch up' does not begin to describe their situation. Not to mention the cannibalisation of their own core business, their primary product that an a7r beater would directly threaten. The loss of support..user base disruption, feelings of abandonment.



Dec 11, 2013 at 02:25 AM
itai195
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p.125 #18 · p.125 #18 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


philip_pj wrote:
'What unique advantage does Sony have other than first mover status?'

It is a big mistake to think CN can kind of click their technological fingers and churn out an a7r beater, or a RX1 beater or the RX100 beater, or whatever Sony's genius designer turns his hand to next year. These are all critical and market successes of some magnitude.


Are they really?Are there any numbers proving that these are market successes of the magnitude that the D800 and 5D3 are, for example? Have any of these Sony cameras been virtually sold out everywhere for six months? Don't get me wrong, I also like these products, but I think proper perspective should be maintained...

'Nikon and Canon have the ability to pump out lenses when they're motivated to do so.'

This one has attained meme status, closely related to 'Sony might abandon the mount in six months' and 'Canon and Nikon are more reliable' and so on and so forth. And my favourite: 'imagine releasing a camera with only one lens?'

Facts are always interesting in assessing these claims. From my reading Canon released four, yes, four lenses in the last completed year - 2012. Could not find anything related to Nikon's output. Canon also released just four primes 135mm and shorter when they introduced
...Show more

Nikon released something like 9 or 10 lenses in 2010, for example. That said, I've never seen Sony commit long term to any platform in any product category. I guess the PlayStation would be the closest, but of course they get to start from scratch every five years so that's a bit of a different animal. I've been burned by them several times, as I suspect many other people have. Once a company establishes a reputation for leaving their customers behind, it's hard to shed.

Motivation? The DSLR market has lost 20% to mirrorless. If you lost 20% of your income you might be motivated to do what you can to fix the problem.

This is a controversial point. Have these sales been lost to mirrorless, or is the camera market as a whole shrinking? IIRC, mirrorless sales are also down compared to last year. Also, lower shipments do not necessarily equate to lower revenues on a one-to-one basis... Both Nikon and Canon have been shifting emphasis to higher end products (e.g. full frame) for the last couple of years.

Sony, as pointed out are not lens makers - merely make the best sensors and pretty good cameras; and leave the lenses for the top end and the RX line to ZEISS, who churn out large numbers of ultra lenses on a continual basis. From mobile phone lenses to Otus and cine.

Absolutely, but Zeiss make lenses for a bunch of mounts, not just Sony's.

By the way, I bought an A7 and I want to see it become a successful product. I just don't think Sony has quite hit on the formula necessary to displace Canon and Nikon yet.

Edited on Dec 11, 2013 at 02:50 AM · View previous versions



Dec 11, 2013 at 02:29 AM
itai195
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p.125 #19 · p.125 #19 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


philip_pj wrote:
Sony pushed the a7(r) out the door early precisely because they knew the primary target market - savvy advanced amateurs - had created a high level of demand for just this camera specification.


I guess. I suspect they pushed the product out because they wanted first mover status and it was technically 'done'. I have no problem with it being released the way it was, it takes time to build up a camera system. I absolutely respect that. I'm just not sure Sony are committed to seeing it through.

You can see the problems they have. In stark terms 'Catch up' does not begin to describe their situation. Not to mention the cannibalisation of their own core business, their primary product that an a7r beater would directly threaten. The loss of support..user base disruption, feelings of abandonment.

Absolutely. It's going to be hard for Nikon and Canon. Pretty much every large company lacks the culture necessary to cannibalize their own existing products.



Dec 11, 2013 at 02:34 AM
itai195
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p.125 #20 · p.125 #20 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Hmmm, I'll have to check that API at some point, if it allows access to needed functionality it should not be too difficult to code the "App" for the camera. However knowing it's Sony it's usually as annoying for developers as shooting their cameras


I took a look at this tonight. It's a really paltry API – there is no control over camera settings other than the self timer. Disappointing.

So... I'm still looking for a decent intervalometer solution.



Dec 11, 2013 at 02:37 AM
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