Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
  

Archive 2013 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed

  
 
UgashikBob
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


I just posted several photos similar to this on the wildlife/nature forum and had issues trying to determine what to focus on. The fox kept circling the eagle and I was going crazy trying to get decent focus. I was using a 5dIII with 600II plus 1.4xIII. I was in AI Focus mode as the subjects were still most of time but the fox would randomly move around the eagle. I was also switching from single point to single point expansion in hopes of keeping both subjects in focus but rarely achieved that. Should I of used the 61 point option and hope for the best or am I trying to accomplish the impossible unless both subjects are on the same focal plane?








Oct 10, 2013 at 09:39 PM
EB-1
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


I would have stopped down and bumped the ISO, but there is only so much DOF with very long lenses. Sometimes you need to be patient and shoot a lot of frames to find good positioning of multiple subjects.

EBH



Oct 10, 2013 at 09:52 PM
Pixel Perfect
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


EB-1 wrote:
I would have stopped down and bumped the ISO, but there is only so much DOF with very long lenses. Sometimes you need to be patient and shoot a lot of frames to find good positioning of multiple subjects.

EBH


Yeah, this is a tough one. If the fox was moving erratically I'd have tried case 4 initially with one point, then with expanded points. If you time it right, you might get the fox and eagle in the same plane of focus and get them both sharp, but 840mm doesn't give you much DoF and stopping down won't help a lot.

Another option I guess is get two perfectly focused shots of each and combine them, but you it might have been an idea to switch out to say a 400mm lens say and crop the shot. This might have given you the DoF required and you don't have to crop tight to fill the frame with the animals, some context is always good.



Oct 10, 2013 at 09:59 PM
Sjjindra
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


How did the event end? Fox go it's own way? Eagle fly off? Blue Jay chase them both off?
Steve



Oct 10, 2013 at 10:14 PM
UgashikBob
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Thanks to all for the excellent comments. The event ended in a draw. The magpie just went away but the eagle flew off and the fox left. Then the eagle came back to the exact spot and they went at it again until heavy rain drove them both off. I would give a slight edges to the fox. I was very impressed with what I think was this same fox when he stood up to a huge bear that was at his den door several weeks ago.


Oct 10, 2013 at 10:50 PM
Sven Jeppesen
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Sjjindra wrote:
How did the event end? Fox go it's own way? Eagle fly off? Blue Jay chase them both off?
Steve


It looks like a common Magpie to me



Oct 11, 2013 at 02:14 AM
garyvot
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


UgashikBob wrote:
I was also switching from single point to single point expansion in hopes of keeping both subjects in focus but rarely achieved that.


Choice of active focusing point (with or without expansion) will not help keep multiple subjects in focus when they are not in the same plane. The only solutions are to increase depth of field by stopping down, or to switch to a shorter focal length lens and get closer (either which is not always possible).

Expansion primarily helps with moving subjects in AI Servo. In One Shot it can be actively detrimental, as the camera can use an expansion point to grab focus on something closer than intended (like the brim of a subject's hat instead of an eye). On some bodies (like the 5D2), expansion (if enabled) is active only in AI Servo, a sensible choice that I wish were available on all of my cameras.



Oct 11, 2013 at 10:49 AM
dgdg
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Nothing makes up for supertele subjects not in the same plane of focus other than cranking down the aperture or photoshopping a composite. You just have to spray and pray.
I find single point focus with assistance from surrounding points work well most of the time. Sure it might lock on something else, but only because the initial point failed in the first place. You'll see it in the viewfinder and naturally retry focus.
Servo 61 point still requires you use the defined single focus point before it subsequently tracks. Doesn't really help the dof, but it is great for birds in flight that I can focus on initially but then wander around the frame.
One shot 61 point will pick the nearest point which might focus on the river bank and blur both subjects.
And then you can always cheat - get each one in focus in different shots with the best pose, then take a pure background landscape shot and photoshop them together as a composite. Why not? I'd be ok with that if it still looked natural and do this often with group photos of people who are blinking and not smiling to various degrees. I haven't done this with wildlife shots yet, but I have moved around boulders and other things that make the background unappealing.



Oct 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM
blueimage
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Hey Bob....looks like you've stepped up your game with a 600mm II...congrats. My input is that you need to pick your priority subject and concentrate on maintaining focus there. In this case, it's probably the eagle?, and the fox is undoubtedly moving in and out of the focal plane. If this was shot at say 50 yards, your DOF @ 840mm, f/5.6 was about 3.8 ft, and would have been about double that @ f/11 (7.8 ft) So, at the settings you had, anytime the fox was more than 2 ft farther or closer than the eagle, it would be OOF. Take more images and hope to catch your ancillary subject in the focal plane, shoot more precisely when you think it's all in the focal plane - and / or adjust your aperture for more DOF. Or better yet, shoot a larger threesome of subjects - like a bear, a wolf and a caribou, which have to be four times farther away to fill the frame the same - then you'd of had over 30ft of DOF Sometimes your just not going to get everything you want at a given distance and focal length.

I would use back button focus on the eagle (once since he's not moving) and shoot away at different compositions when the fox looked right. You also have the option of focusing between the eagle and fox - and increasing the chance of both being within the focal plane....at the risk of neither.

If you're not using back button only focus....you should be

Best,

Jim



Oct 11, 2013 at 12:19 PM
surfnron
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Bob, this link should help you ~ Ron


Oct 11, 2013 at 02:55 PM
BluesWest
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


I was in AI Focus mode

I don't know whether AI Focus mode works well on a 5D Mark III, but that mode on my 7D is useless - I've never had success with it and use only Servo or One-Shot. In the situation you describe, I would have chosen Servo -- it works fine for most static subjects and you would have been instantly ready to capture subject movement.

If you're not using back button only focus....you should be.

The AF system does not work any differently using back button focus compared to the standard method. Don't let anyone tell you that "back button focus is the way the pros do it". It's simply a matter of personal preference -- you might like that method better, you might not, but I doubt that it will increase your percentage of in-focus images.

John



Oct 12, 2013 at 01:37 AM
Paul Mo
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


One shot, max aperture given available light, and shoot and wait and shoot and wait - I'd keep the eagle in focus and wait for the fix to cross the plane of focus/come within range.


Oct 12, 2013 at 01:50 AM
Sjjindra
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Sven Jeppesen wrote:
It looks like a common Magpie to me


I have a long way to go on learning birds. I just spotted the jay with blue. Should have stuck with the generic jay. Haven't seen magpies in the Houston area. Maybe more time with need to use the Ibird program will help.

Nice sequence though.

Steve



Oct 12, 2013 at 09:25 AM
Sjjindra
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Paul Mo wrote:
One shot, max aperture given available light, and shoot and wait and shoot and wait - I'd keep the eagle in focus and wait for the fix to cross the plane of focus/come within range.


Good instructions.



Oct 12, 2013 at 09:35 AM
trenchmonkey
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Looks like focus is on the shrub behind the fox, so you might want to fine tune that combo
...if indeed focus was on the fox. Stopping down to f8 (1stop from wide open) will yield
better IQ and a little more DOF can't hurt with multiple subjects. Bump up the ISO and try
for SS of 2X FL when there's action like this. The keepers will come with practice/tweaks.



Oct 12, 2013 at 09:36 AM
Sjjindra
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


UgashikBob wrote:
Thanks to all for the excellent comments. The event ended in a draw. The magpie just went away but the eagle flew off and the fox left. Then the eagle came back to the exact spot and they went at it again until heavy rain drove them both off. I would give a slight edges to the fox. I was very impressed with what I think was this same fox when he stood up to a huge bear that was at his den door several weeks ago.


You've been getting some great observations. Any photos of the event with the fox and bear? (Forgive me if a little off the main topic.)



Oct 12, 2013 at 09:40 AM
blueimage
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


BluesWest wrote:
I don't know whether AI Focus mode works well on a 5D Mark III, but that mode on my 7D is useless - I've never had success with it and use only Servo or One-Shot. In the situation you describe, I would have chosen Servo -- it works fine for most static subjects and you would have been instantly ready to capture subject movement.

The AF system does not work any differently using back button focus compared to the standard method. Don't let anyone tell you that "back button focus is the way the pros do it". It's simply a matter
...Show more

John, it would be hard to shoe-horn more inaccurate advise into so few sentences. While back button focus does not change the inner workings of the focusing system, it dramatically improves the control you have over it. For wildlife photography, the merits of separating the focus actuation from the shutter button and the metering system are substantial - and will indeed lead to a higher percentage of in-focus and well composed shots. This simple change has become a ritual with me in helping my guests on safaris to get better shots - and I have a 100% conversion rate with folks claiming it was an "Ah Ha" moment, and they've never looked back. It does require properly setting up the camera - and an understanding of how and why to operate differently....an easy process that takes very little time, and which will pay huge dividends.

Bob, I would be happy to PM you a brief tutorial if you're interested.

Jim



Oct 12, 2013 at 12:13 PM
UgashikBob
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Jim:
Please do. I'm open to any and all input as I don't have to many Boomers to bounce it off from out here.
Sjindra:
Link to some of the bear/fox oof shots.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1241804/0?keyword=x#11813334

surfnron: Thanks for the link. I just lasered the distance and it was 474 feet so I had 25.6 feet dof at F4 and 36.2 at 5.6. Since I focused on the eagle I would of thought the fox was within a 25 ft dof but evidently not.



Oct 12, 2013 at 09:50 PM
hnilsson
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


Here's what I'd have done:

1. Bump ISO to 1,600. 5D Mark III can easily handle that.
2. Stop down to f8. Shutter speed should still be plenty.
3. This is the important bit. Assuming your combo is calibrated correctly, focus 1/3 behind the front subject (eagle). Now if you don't have enough DOF, neither will be in focus. But if you do, you'll get them both. Typically a correctly calibrated setup will focus 1/3 in front of your subject and 2/3 behind.
4. And this could be item 1...you can get an app for your tablet and smart phone that'll calculate the DOF at any given f-stop/distance to subject.

Voila.

Henrik



Oct 12, 2013 at 11:41 PM
Alan321
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Super Tele Focusing advice needed


On a Nikon I would use Manual mode with auto ISO - I'd set the shutter speed that I need to freeze the action and the aperture that I need for DOF and I'd let the metering system determine the ISO. Failing that (e.g. with a Canon) it becomes a contest between selecting adequate shutter speed or adequate aperture with whatever ISO I choose manually, and tweaking the ISO as required. But then I also have to keep an eye on the ISO in case I'm using one that is higher (and noisier) than necessary - especially if the lighting is varying.

I wouldn't want unnecessary noise in the image but fixing too much noise in post processing is far easier and far more successful than fixing too much motion blur or too little DOF.

The DOF is proportional to the f/number. So f/11 will give you twice the DOF of f/5.6, whatever it is at f/5.6. However, if you go too far then the benefit of extra DOF is offset by the overall reduction in sharpness caused by diffraction. Also, with a long lens and a short distance it might mean 2" of DOF instead of 1" - still nowhere near enough.

As tm pointed alluded to, focus tuning is essential when using a small DOF.


Henrik's 1/3:2/3 DOF suggestion (point 3 in his post) is possibly correct in some situations but certainly not in all. Use a DOF calculator and prove it to yourself. More often the DOF is about equal in front of and behind the focus plane but at longer distances it extends far more behind the focus plane than in front of it. Furthermore, the calculated DOF is much fuzzier than you will want to see in your prints, so allow a couple of stops for pin-sharp DOF. e.g. if you want a realistically sharp DOF for f/8 in a print that uses all of the pixels
in the image then calculate DOF for f/4 or f/2.8 but still use f/8 when shooting. Those DOF standards were defined decades ago for lower-res film and poorer printing processes than we have in the modern high-res, low-noise digital era. The 0.03mm circle of confusion which is typically used for "full frame" cameras covers a whole heap of pixels and if every sharp edge transition was spread over that many pixels then you might be horrified at the result even though it looks better in print than on screen.

- Alan



Oct 14, 2013 at 12:09 PM
1
       2       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.