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Archive 2013 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

ahender
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

I've been using a Canon 300 f4 IS for my daughter's club soccer. This spring she will start high school soccer.

Debating between getting the 300 2.8 or 400 2.8.

Will also be using a 70-200 2.8.

Right now we have a 7D and 1Dmk II.

Probably will have to upgrade at least one camera.

Games are early spring so some will be under lighting.

Your thoughts?

Oct 10, 2013 at 12:35 PM

gome1122
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

I wish I had that choice on something just for a daughter's soccer game. I do this because it's what I love to do and I don't have that. I Would use the 70-200 f/2.8 on the 7D and the 400 f/2.8 on the 1D II. If you are looking to upgrade the bodies I would look at upgrading the 1D II to a 1D III. The 7D is still a great pretty up to date camera. The 1D II is pretty old, but the 1D III is a great cheap sports camera.

Oct 10, 2013 at 01:42 PM

WalnutPond
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

Bought a 300 2.8/IS

Next season bought a 400/2.8IS

The 300 has set in the closet ever since.

This was on a 1.3 crop, now with 1dX it's even a clearer choice.

WIth a 1.6 crop I'm not as sure, the 300 would be obviously longer reach, but almost everyone I've ever spoken for soccer eventually ends up with the same story as I just told....

If you could find someone to let you try one, or even rent, it may be worth it.

I really should sell my 300, but i just hate to sell Glass because "you never know..."

Oct 10, 2013 at 01:50 PM

Russ Isabella
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

You definitely can get by with the 300 f/2.8, and you can buy a 1.4x extender to give you 420mm at f/4 for when you have good light.

Oct 10, 2013 at 02:46 PM

schlotz
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

Russ Isabella wrote:
You definitely can get by with the 300 f/2.8, and you can buy a 1.4x extender to give you 420mm at f/4 for when you have good light.

+1 Used this setup for a number of years prior to getting the 400 2.8.

Oct 10, 2013 at 02:48 PM

Neddie Seagoon
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

Nice to have that kind of choice.

I did the math on this a while ago as I was curious. This is for a 1.5 crop, but the numbers would be directly proportional for other size sensors. So, at 30 yards out frame size in feet is:

200mm 7.06 x 10.6
300mm 4.75 x 7.05
400mm 3.60 x 5.31

That should give you an idea of the reach available.

Oct 10, 2013 at 03:34 PM

ahender
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I was playing around with using a 1.4 extender with my 70-200 2.8 on the 1D mkII. At f4 280mm I was surprised at how razor thin the DOF was. Was shooting my dogs nose and the DOF seemed to be inches. Does the addition of the extender reduce the DOF by a large amount?

I was probably 10-15 yards away from my dog.

I had been using my 300 f4 with this lens and the DOF seemed much greater at f4 (but at a greater distance).

Oct 10, 2013 at 04:11 PM

msalvetti
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

Of course it depends on what position she plays, where you plan to shoot from, and if you plan to shoot the whole team or just her.

I have been using a 7D and a 100-400, and a wander around on either side of the midfield stripe. There are definitely times where I think 400 is too short, like when shooting straight across the field, or even the goalie. And I can't use that lens at night. Fortunately most of our games are late afternoon.

I just started using a 1DMkIV with the 100-400, which gives me even less reach (but I think the crops are better than the 7D; not sure yet).

If I was able to afford your options, I think I'd go with the 400 on a 1D, and the 70-200 with a TC on the 7D, or maybe 70-200 alone.

Mark

Oct 10, 2013 at 04:20 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

Sell the 7D and 1D II, buy a 1D IV and 300 f/2.8L IS and 1.4x TC. Don't forget 1D IV has double the pixels of 1D II so is already like a 1.4x TC compared to using 1D II; you'd need a 420mm lens on 1D II to get same pixels per subject as a 1D IV and 300. If this reach isn't enough you can use the 1.4x and bump the ISO a stop, 1D IV is good to ISO 6400-8000.

Oct 10, 2013 at 04:24 PM

Grantland
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

400 f/2.8

Oct 10, 2013 at 05:00 PM

ahender
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

msalvetti wrote:
Of course it depends on what position she plays, where you plan to shoot from, and if you plan to shoot the whole team or just her.

I have been using a 7D and a 100-400, and a wander around on either side of the midfield stripe. There are definitely times where I think 400 is too short, like when shooting straight across the field, or even the goalie. And I can't use that lens at night. Fortunately most of our games are late afternoon.

I just started using a 1DMkIV with the 100-400, which gives me even less reach (but...Show more →

She'll play a forward position but I will be shooting the entire team. My wife and I both shoot so we will want to keep two cameras. My concern is the late games under lights. Our field is well lit for a high school but ISO and shutter speed will still be issues. I'm going to shoot a football game next week just to see what I am up against. Would choosing a 5D mkIII and a 400 f5.6 be totally stupid as options for night sports? I would rely on the much better ISO of the 5D while giving up two stops with the 5.6 lens plus gain extra cropping ability. The price would be the same or cheaper than buying one 2.8 lens.

Oct 10, 2013 at 05:06 PM

adamx12m
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

The one thing about high school soccer fields is poor lighting, especially in the corners. Soccer fields seem wider but vary compared to football fields. Last week I shot some soccer with my 1d4 + 70-200 ii + 1.4tc and that doesn't cut it focal length wise or f4 at night above iso5000. I get can some great images and clean them in lightroom but the keeper rate is definitely lower. Pretty much at the limit IMO with this shot.
1d4, 1/640, iso5000, 1d4+70-200+1.4 at f4, uncropped, cleaned up in LR

A few days later I shot some 7th grade football mid-day with both a 1d4 and 1dx switching back and forth with the 300 f2.8 ii + 1.4tc last week. This was uncropped shot (1d4 + 300 + 1.4tc) from the opposite corner of the end-zone across the field where the player I think just crossed over the 50 yd line by about 5 yards to give some perspective.

I'd rent first a 300 f2.8 and start from that point, then buy it. Paired with a 7D I think you have what you need. Use the 70-200 on the 1D. I wouldn't waste your time with the 100-400 unless it's in the daytime.

Oct 10, 2013 at 06:25 PM

skibum5
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

ahender wrote:
She'll play a forward position but I will be shooting the entire team. My wife and I both shoot so we will want to keep two cameras. My concern is the late games under lights. Our field is well lit for a high school but ISO and shutter speed will still be issues. I'm going to shoot a football game next week just to see what I am up against. Would choosing a 5D mkIII and a 400 f5.6 be totally stupid as options for night sports? I would rely on the much better ISO of the 5D while giving...Show more →

I can't imagine f/5.6 for night HS sports.

Oct 10, 2013 at 11:52 PM

rolette
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

I can't imagine f/5.6 for night HS sports.
+1

Not unusual to be shooting at f/2.8, 1/500, ISO 12,800 in the end zone for HS night sports (and still underexposing in the corners!). The really sad part is, that isn't an old venue with half the lights out...

Oct 11, 2013 at 07:07 AM

OntheRez
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

rolette wrote:
+1

Not unusual to be shooting at f/2.8, 1/500, ISO 12,800 in the end zone for HS night sports (and still underexposing in the corners!). The really sad part is, that isn't an old venue with half the lights out...

+1

It of course all depends on what sort of light the venue has, but I often have to shoot f/2.8, 1/400, ISO 25600 and am still - depending the position on the field due to missing lights - one or two stops dark. The use of an expensive 400 f/2.8, or 300 f/2.8 presupposes that the shooter will be at some distance from the sidelines. I find the lack of zoom capability to be damning when shooting from the sidelines at the line of scrimmage in football. Soccer is somewhat different in that play isn't as focused on a line and can swifter in either direction. In football use of the sidelines is a key tactic whereas it is not as important in soccer. I've only shot soccer in daylight and the 300 f/4.0 and the 70-200 f/2.8 both met my needs as there was plenty of light and I could stop down. In the dark, I'd be amazed if you could be slower than f/4.0.

To the OP, just how close to the field and the action can you be? One thing for sure is that unless you have a monster lens and stand way off from the field, there will always be action that your rig won't be able to catch properly.

Robert

Oct 11, 2013 at 10:22 AM

ahender
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

OntheRez wrote:
+1

It of course all depends on what sort of light the venue has, but I often have to shoot f/2.8, 1/400, ISO 25600 and am still - depending the position on the field due to missing lights - one or two stops dark. The use of an expensive 400 f/2.8, or 300 f/2.8 presupposes that the shooter will be at some distance from the sidelines. I find the lack of zoom capability to be damning when shooting from the sidelines at the line of scrimmage in football. Soccer is somewhat different in that play isn't as focused on a line...Show more →

Our soccer field is a football field. I can stand anywhere I want on the sideline. Unlike football, the players/coaches are on the opposite side of the field. With the high ISOs being described, seems like I will have problems using a 7D and 1D mkIIn regardless of lens choice.

I have a 70-200 f2.8 lens. It's the long end I need. My concern is high ISO. I have never shot the 7D at super high ISO and the 1D only goes to 3200. How did shooters manage in the past with the 1D when shooting in low light? Even with a 2.8 lens, seems like a super challenge to take shots at ISO 3200.

I appreciate all the responses.

Oct 11, 2013 at 11:57 AM

OntheRez
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

ahender,

Again, I don't know what exposure values you might need. You should go take some practice shots with the lights on and see what happens. I started with a 1DIIn (a truly sweet camera), but it just couldn't get to the ISO necessary. Flash might help you if it is allowed, but that does introduce several other issues.

Robert

Oct 11, 2013 at 01:55 PM

msalvetti
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

There are certainly cleaner cameras, but I wouldn't worry about shooting the 7D at high ISO, say up to about 4000 or 5000. It's when I read accounts of having to go to 12,800 that I cringe.

I almost never shoot at night, but this is my daughter, shot with the 7D, ISO4000, 70-200II, f/2.8, 1/640. Lens at 125mm. Shot RAW, heavy noise reduction in ACR:


	http://msalvetti.smugmug.com/Sports/2013-Saugus-High-Girls-Soccer/Triton-09-09-13/i-bJSKpSm/0/X2/Saugus%20vs%20Triton%209-09-13-0036_nrps-X2.jpg

This is ISO12,800, 200mm and then cropped, f/2.8, 1/400:


	http://msalvetti.smugmug.com/Sports/2012-Winthrop-HS-Football/Winthrop-vs-Saugus-10-12-12/i-gprshzg/1/X2/Winthrop%20vs%20Saugus%2010-12-12%20-%20037ps-X2.jpg

Not awful, I don't think. I tried not to shoot too low; having the grassy background helps show less noise than if it was black.

The thing that would worry me is shooting at 400mm, you'll need even higher shutter speeds to stop motion and lens shake.

Mark

Oct 11, 2013 at 06:15 PM

ahender
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

The 12800 image looks great considering the lighting. Better a not so perfect image than none at all. I'm going to go out and shoot a night football game next week and see what is required.

Oct 11, 2013 at 09:06 PM

rolette
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · High School Soccer Lens Choice

Here's an ISO 12,800 shot with a 1D4 + 300/2.8 from a couple of weeks ago:

http://rolette.smugmug.com/photos/i-zhSxrgw/0/XL/i-zhSxrgw-XL.jpg

This is processed as I normally would in LR4, not straight out of the camera. SooC is considerably noisier, but at these high ISO values, you really need to be post-processing them, so that's why I'm showing the final result.

PP is not my strong suite either, so doesn't require a PhD in Photoshop to achieve these kinds of results.

Jay

Oct 12, 2013 at 08:33 AM

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