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Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon
  
 
sebboh
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p.20 #1 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


i've heard lots of people complain about the R 100 apo's bokeh and in comparisons i've seen both the cv 125/2.5 and even the zf 100/2 had better bokeh (at the same apertures).




Oct 21, 2013 at 06:37 PM
carstenw
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p.20 #2 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


Steve Spencer wrote:
knowing that a lens has a nice round aperture when stopping down doesn't mean that it will have nice bokeh.

In contrast, if we consider the new Nikon Noct the close sag and tang lines wide open in no way indicates it will have good bokeh.


I am sure it is only one factor, but I am sure it is a factor. As will be the 9 rounded blades in the aperture. And the very low coma (although that might be correlated with the first point). Every indication we have so far points to Nikon taking particular care to create very good boke. I for one am excited about it. Although I guess the boke will be more Leica than Zeiss. I hope there is no mechanical vignetting, potentially leading to cat's eyes.



Oct 21, 2013 at 06:40 PM
carstenw
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p.20 #3 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


sebboh wrote:
i've heard lots of people complain about the R 100 apo's bokeh and in comparisons i've seen both the cv 125/2.5 and even the zf 100/2 had better bokeh (at the same apertures).


Yes, I have also seen both beautiful and unattractive boke from the Apo 100. Also ASPH lenses in general seem to have various difficulties in the boke area.

Edited on Oct 21, 2013 at 07:01 PM · View previous versions



Oct 21, 2013 at 06:42 PM
Makten
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p.20 #4 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


adamdewilde wrote:
For sure any of my Leica 50mm lenses would, although I don't think they're classic's in the way you meant it (and fast is a relative term)..


Sorry, I meant classic SLR lenses.



Oct 21, 2013 at 06:43 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.20 #5 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


carstenw wrote:
I am sure it is only one factor, but I am sure it is a factor. As will be the 9 rounded blades in the aperture. And the very low coma (although that might be correlated with the first point). Every indication we have so far points to Nikon taking particular care to create very good boke. I for one am excited about it. Although I guess the boke will be more Leica than Zeiss. I hope there is no mechanical vignetting, potentially leading to cat's eyes.


I to think that Nikon has taken care to create a lens with a good bokeh (but maybe not good bokeh across the board perhaps just for portraits). The samples seem to show good bokeh for portraits, but that is only one type of bokeh. Does it have good bokeh stopped down? Does it have good bokeh at 20 meters? Does it have good bokeh with a close busy background? Does it have good foreground bokeh? How are the corners and the edges at medium aperture? There are still a lot of unanswered questions, and I don't think the close sag and tang lines W/O say anything, but I may be wrong. I think in this case they are probably the results of high SAs, but of course you could get the same pattern for a well corrected lens as well. My point is I don't think close sag and tang lines at one particular aperture indicate that the lens will have good bokeh even at that aperture. Those MTFs could be caused by several different patterns of aberrations affecting one another or by no aberrations and since we don't know exactly what is causing the MTF pattern for the New Noct we can't say that it indicates good bokeh.



Oct 21, 2013 at 06:57 PM
sebboh
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p.20 #6 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


alba63 wrote:
I have heard before that some say/ think that AF goes against best optical excellence. Could anybody give a very short general explanation what compromises optical quality in AF (without technical details)?

Bernie


modern fast AF requires a small light focus group (or giant powerful motor i guess), this means changing the actual design of the lens and adding more different constraints to the cost/performance calculation (optical stabilization is similar in this regard). basically, the simplest way to make a high performance lens of given speed and focal length probably isn't conducive to fast AF, so instead a more complicated optical design is required. this means a higher price per performance ratio or cutting costs elsewhere (build, labor, quality control, etc).

the other issues are of course AF accuracy and calibration, which depend on the camera and lens together.




Oct 21, 2013 at 07:09 PM
U.C.
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p.20 #7 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


But with Planar design (most 50mm lenses) there isn't much choice of what lens group to use for focus. Maybe for Distagon design there are more choices.


Oct 21, 2013 at 07:35 PM
sebboh
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p.20 #8 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


U.C. wrote:
But with Planar design (most 50mm lenses) there isn't much choice of what lens group to use for focus. Maybe for Distagon design there are more choices.


yup, hence the ridiculous size compared to glass of the new nikon and ZA 50/1.4.




Oct 21, 2013 at 07:41 PM
zhangyue
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p.20 #9 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


sebboh wrote:
i've heard lots of people complain about the R 100 apo's bokeh and in comparisons i've seen both the cv 125/2.5 and even the zf 100/2 had better bokeh (at the same apertures).


Mp100 do have pretty good Bokeh as well. So does its sagittal and tangential line 90APO ASPH seems suffer so so Bokeh in reputation with good sagittal and tangential line as well...



Oct 21, 2013 at 09:31 PM
carstenw
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p.20 #10 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


The 90AA has some of the best boke at times, but not always. It is an ASPH design though, which seems to throw a monkey wrench in things...


Oct 21, 2013 at 10:15 PM
 

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wayne seltzer
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p.20 #11 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


sebboh wrote:
i've heard lots of people complain about the R 100 apo's bokeh and in comparisons i've seen both the cv 125/2.5 and even the zf 100/2 had better bokeh (at the same apertures).


Can you show me some examples of bad bokeh with the R 100 APO as I have not seen that with my copy. I definitely have seen busy bokeh from R 90 APO as it is a ASPH design. I also see busy bokeh with 100 MP due to its strong rendering of OOF areas and thus like the bokeh better from my 100/2 planar.
TIA



Oct 22, 2013 at 07:50 AM
sebboh
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p.20 #12 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


wayne seltzer wrote:
Can you show me some examples of bad bokeh with the R 100 APO as I have not seen that with my copy. I definitely have seen busy bokeh from R 90 APO as it is a ASPH design. I also see busy bokeh with 100 MP due to its strong rendering of OOF areas and thus like the bokeh better from my 100/2 planar.
TIA


i don't have any handy, but i'm sure a perusal of the R thread could probably find some. it's most noticeable at portrait distance, and it's not wild or crazy, just harsh. somebody here did a direct comparison with it to the zf 100/2 and cv 125/2.5 a while back (only macro though i think) where you could see that the leica was harsher (and sharper).




Oct 22, 2013 at 08:14 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.20 #13 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


Makten wrote:
Heh, does it? Certainly A LOT better than most other ~50 mm Nikkors.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Makten/DSC_3412_1500_zpsb7d2782c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Makten/DSC_3410_1500_zpsd0d71340.jpg

Edit: By the way, look at how the sharpness rapidly declines to the right in the second image. This lens is worthless for planar objects.


Noct-nikkor and Rokkor 58/1.2 are both slightly under corrected SA designs so they render busy foreground bokeh and smoother background bokeh. If you have a shot with high contrast object in foreground that is OOF then you will see busier bokeh.
Previous lens tests posted in this forum showed the Rokkor to perform very closely with the Noct-Nikkor as they share similar designs except the Noct-Nikkor has much rounder OOF highlights (bokeh circles) compared to the cat's eye ones of the Rokkor 58. Rokkor 58 is thus a good value for its performance.
The new 1.4 Nikkor doesn't perform as well as 35Gand 24G for center sharpness, so I am not that impressed by it.
This new Otus will be special WO and I can't wait to shoot with one on my D800E.



Oct 22, 2013 at 08:29 AM
AhamB
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p.20 #14 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


sebboh wrote:
somebody here did a direct comparison with it to the zf 100/2 and cv 125/2.5 a while back (only macro though i think) where you could see that the leica was harsher (and sharper).


Here: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1025651/0#9747210

I've seen a similar characteristic (slightly hard edged bokeh) in Samuli's shots with the APO-Elmarit-R 180/2.8.



Oct 22, 2013 at 08:52 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.20 #15 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


AhamB wrote:
Here: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1025651/0#9747210

I've seen a similar characteristic (slightly hard edged bokeh) in Samuli's shots with the APO-Elmarit-R 180/2.8.


I agree with Almass's statement in the thread you linked, that the APO 100 has the best bokeh and sharpness compared to zf100MP and has much better loCA correction. Distance to subject and background along with how harsh the light is obviously affect a lens's bokeh rendering thus you need to do a lot of side by side comparisons.



Oct 22, 2013 at 09:32 AM
carstenw
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p.20 #16 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


wayne seltzer wrote:
The new 1.4 Nikkor doesn't perform as well as 35Gand 24G for center sharpness, so I am not that impressed by it.
This new Otus will be special WO and I can't wait to shoot with one on my D800E.


Ah, yes, the sharpness-is-everything school I am very impressed that Nikon had the balls to make such a design without placing the sharpness at the top of the list. It looks plenty sharp, just not world-beating sharp, which means that they put the emphasis on other things. In this case, I believe: boke.

Edited on Oct 22, 2013 at 10:26 AM · View previous versions



Oct 22, 2013 at 10:10 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.20 #17 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


carstenw wrote:
Ah, yes, the sharpness-is-everything school I am very impressed that Nikon had the balls to make such a design without placing the sharpness at the top of the list. It looks plenty sharp, just not world-beating sharp, which means that they put the emphasis on other things. In this case, I believe: boke.


Not everything. But great sharpness/contrast wide open combined with smooth bokeh is what I want and the new Otus looks good so far imo. We will see how popular the new nikon lens becomes. Sounds like you will be getting it.



Oct 22, 2013 at 10:24 AM
carstenw
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p.20 #18 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


I am thinking about it. I will watch the results for sure. I am also interested in the Otus and can imagine owning both. I just can't imagine paying for both. At some point there is such a thing as too many lenses and not enough make-do.


Nikon's approach is more of a medium-format approach, which interests me greatly.



Oct 22, 2013 at 10:25 AM
AhamB
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p.20 #19 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


wayne seltzer wrote:
I agree with Almass's statement in the thread you linked, that the APO 100 has the best bokeh and sharpness compared to zf100MP and has much better loCA correction.


"Best" is entirely subjective of course. In Almass's test, the Leica's bokeh certainly is the least smooth of the 3 lenses, even though it's not a huge difference. I think I like the Contax Apo-Makro-Planar 120/4 most for its combination of CA correction, sharpness and bokeh.



Oct 22, 2013 at 10:49 AM
sebboh
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p.20 #20 · Official: Zeiss Otus 55mm f/1.4 APO-Distagon


wayne seltzer wrote:
I agree with Almass's statement in the thread you linked, that the APO 100 has the best bokeh and sharpness compared to zf100MP and has much better loCA correction. Distance to subject and background along with how harsh the light is obviously affect a lens's bokeh rendering thus you need to do a lot of side by side comparisons.


i guess we just disagree then (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1025651/1&year=2011#9747698). the R APO certainly has better loCA correction than the ZF but it also has the harder edges, which bother me more often (loCA is not really visible in many situations). the hard edges of the R APO are more visible (obviously) at longer focal distances.



Oct 22, 2013 at 03:04 PM
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