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Archive 2013 · High frame rate flash Q

PatrickSweeney
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · High frame rate flash Q

I've asked this in the Canon forum, but I thought the lighting boffins here might have an idea on this, also.

I have a problem, and a question. First, the setup;

My Canon 7D, with radio remote in the hotshoe. Camera settings to fast frame rate, "P" dial setting, high-enough ISO to keep up with the frame rate.

On a tripod, Canon 580EXII, with same-brand radio remote. Attached is a Canon CP-E4, both flash and CP-E4 have fully-charged, new, AA batteries. 580EXII is set for manual, 1/128th power.

When I press the shutter release, the flash fires for the first exposure and not any more.

If I let go, and press again, it flashes again, only for the first time.

My understanding is that the flash should fire each time the shutter clicks, as long as the batteries can "top off" the capacitor. Once the batteries can't keep up, it will flash only as the capacitor catches up.

I realize that in so-doing, I risk heat problems.

So, why does it flash only on the first, and not subsequent shutter clicks? is there a camera or 580EXII setting I have to engage?

Sep 17, 2013 at 03:28 PM

cmyb
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · High frame rate flash Q

Hi Patrick, I have just tested with 7D, cpe4 and 580exii in P mode on camera and with 2 different wireless remotes. Flash fires every time shutter clicks. This is just to confirm it should work. No special settings just plug and play.

Sep 18, 2013 at 09:02 PM

onesickpuppy
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · High frame rate flash Q

His problem was answered in the other posting....bad wireless remote products

Sep 18, 2013 at 11:52 PM

PatrickSweeney
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · High frame rate flash Q

Cheap chinese radio remotes, which work just fine one shot at a time.

High frame rate, no joy.

Thanks, I guess we can close this one.

Sep 20, 2013 at 11:04 AM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · High frame rate flash Q

On Canon is "P" mode 'Program'?

If so, are the triggers being used capable of TTL? Maybe try Manual if not.

Sep 20, 2013 at 12:21 PM

BrianO
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · High frame rate flash Q

ukphotographer wrote:
On Canon is "P" mode 'Program'?

Yes, P is Program, however on Canon cameras P Mode isn't as restrictive as the "green box" mode. You can still use Manual flash settings, etc.

ukphotographer wrote:
...If so, are the triggers being used capable of TTL? Maybe try Manual if not.

He did, as stated in the first post:

PatrickSweeney wrote:
...580EXII is set for manual, 1/128th power.

Sep 20, 2013 at 03:14 PM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · High frame rate flash Q

BrianO wrote:
He did, as stated in the first post:

Manual exposure control on the camera I meant.

Program mode is a mode where neither Shutter speed nor Aperture are chosen and the camera does it all. How can a Manual flash as part of this setup being set to Manual - completely out of control of a camera working to a 'program' - be expected to work?

It doesn't make any sense to use a setup like this where a camera is going to return a best guess exposure with an additional 'out of ballpark' flash being introduced. Doesn't work? Can't say I'm surprised really, I wouldn't expect anything to work in this situation and if this is a test situation - its rather bizarre.

When ever would a program mode be run with a trigger system incapable of using it in a mode which is unsupported ever happen? What triggers are being used?

Sep 20, 2013 at 04:16 PM

BrianO
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · High frame rate flash Q

ukphotographer wrote:
...Doesn't work? Can't say I'm surprised really, I wouldn't expect anything to work in this situation...

Ian, don't obfuscate the thread. The only question being addressed here is why the triggers wouldn't fire more than one frame in a sequence. Period. Full stop.

The answer, as already given, is that the triggers the OP was using aren't able to do it, but other triggers are. I replicated the OP's test exactly -- P-Mode and all -- with the exception that I used YN-622C triggers, and it worked just fine. I fired three long series of shots one after another, and the Speedlites fired every time at full speed until the buffer filled and the sequence stopped.

So while you may not expect anything to work, it does.

Sep 20, 2013 at 05:30 PM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · High frame rate flash Q

BrianO wrote:
Ian, don't obfuscate the thread. The only question being addressed here is why the triggers wouldn't fire more than one frame in a sequence. Period. Full stop..

I'm asking why?? You're not answering why at all - just answering "I have another setup that works".. Why?

Why don't the 'unnamed' triggers work.. are they TTL capable - as they should be using a 'Program' mode - and what does it matter that others do work - as the circumstances in which they do work is totally irrelevant. Maybe they SHOULDN'T work in this scenario or theres some other reason that they do. So whats the difference between the two types of triggers?

Is the camera not sending a second - third - fourth flash command because it hasn't received a TTL reply from a remote - as it should - what?? What is the reason its not working?

Since nobody has a clue what the triggers being tried are, and the ones which do work perform a useless task - at least some useful information should be obtained from the whole exercise otherwise its just futile.

Interesting that your YN-622C (TTL CAPABLE) triggers work with a TTL PROGRAMME mode... Maybe not.

What were the original triggers being tried?

Sep 20, 2013 at 06:30 PM

BrianO
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · High frame rate flash Q

ukphotographer wrote:
...Interesting that your YN-622C (TTL CAPABLE) triggers work with a TTL PROGRAMME mode...

Do they? I couldn't tell you, because I seldom use P mode. I only did it in this non-TTL test because that was the OP's scenario.

As for whether or not Manual flash with Program exposure is useless or not, that's a question for a seperate thread; I will say, though, that I can see cases where it could be useful, and so does Canon as evidenced by the fact that their cameras are capable of it and their User Manuals talk about it.

Sep 20, 2013 at 08:32 PM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · High frame rate flash Q

BrianO wrote:
Do they? I couldn't tell you, because I seldom use P mode. I only did it in this non-TTL test because that was the OP's scenario.

As for whether or not Manual flash with Program exposure is useless or not, that's a question for a seperate thread; I will say, though, that I can see cases where it could be useful, and so does Canon as evidenced by the fact that their cameras are capable of it and their User Manuals talk about it.

You like to tell everybody how everything works, I thought you would be able to tell us how well your (owned and used) TTL Triggers work with a TTL program - which is what is being used here... Oh you did, TTL triggers with a TTL Program work !! Rather OBVIOUS don't you think?

I find it fascinating how you can make a multi pin TTL trigger into a Manual one to test a non-TTL Program mode ( How did you work that out, Is there a Manual Program mode now?).... How do you make a TTL trigger into a Manual one? Did you rip out the transmitter's pins and reprogram it's logic ?!

Equally interesting is your deduction that the non-firing problem is one caused by the trigger - rather than by the camera not providing a sync signal UNTIL it receives some sort of return signal from the trigger or remote flash it is <b>IN CONTROL</b> of. The camera may not even sense theres a flash in the hotshoe - does that prevent the provision of additional sync signals?

And still we don't know the status of the original triggers - but thats obviously enough for some people to jump to conclusions as to why they don't work.

Do inform me - where would a fixed output flash ever be of use with a variable shutter speed and aperture selection apart from this being RANDOM? You will note from your own findings that.. Canon make their cameras compatible in Program Mode and with TTL triggers, nothing more, and that is what is supposed to happen.

Sep 21, 2013 at 05:35 AM

BrianO
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · High frame rate flash Q

ukphotographer wrote:
...I find it fascinating how you can make a multi pin TTL trigger into a Manual one to test a non-TTL Program mode ( How did you work that out, Is there a Manual Program mode now?)...

It has already been stated that Manual flash was used with Program exposure. The camera's flash control menu was used to set [External Flash Mode] to [Manual], so no, the camera wasn't expecting a TTL return.

Further, another FMer has tested it with two different triggers with no problems, and the OP said he doesn't have problems with his triggers when shooting in single shot mode, just when shooting strings.

You're being deliberately argumentative, and I'm not going to play your game.

Sep 21, 2013 at 08:49 AM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · High frame rate flash Q

Jumping to conclusions and making assumptions helps nobody.

The original triggers were...? The two others tried were...? YOURS were TTL. Apart from your TTL triggers intended and designed to work with a TTL/Program mode everything else is just presumption, as is;

BrianO wrote:
...The camera's flash control menu was used to set [External Flash Mode] to [Manual], so no, the camera wasn't expecting a TTL return..

You did read "No special settings just plug and play." Didn't you? And where were the settings you just mentioned here quoted?

Still awaiting answers on the "where would a fixed output flash ever be of use with a variable shutter speed and aperture selection" - in your own time, or ask Canon where they intended it to be used.

Presume as much as you like.. you're just guessing, jumping to inaccurate conclusions and don't have any scenario where the OP's setup would make any sense or serve any useful purpose.

Sep 21, 2013 at 01:32 PM

BrianO
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · High frame rate flash Q

ukphotographer wrote:
...Presume as much as you like.. you're just guessing, jumping to inaccurate conclusions...

Well, let's see here: you said that P mode and Manual flash aren't possible together, and I proved that they are. You said I must have been in ETTL mode, and I proved that I wasn't. Who's presuming and jumping to conclusions?

More evidence? I just connected my non-TTL, center-pin-only Vivitar 285HV to my camera's hot shoe and -- with the camera in P Mode -- fired a series. You say that won't work, but it did. To take it a step further, I connected the Vivitar to the camera via a PC cord. Not an OC-E3 TTL Off-camera Shoe Cord, but a plain, 2-conductor PC cord into the camera's PC socket, again with the camera in P Mode, and fired a series. You say it won't work, but it did.

Glory be! I must have magical powers! Either that or you're talking out your ass. I think it's obvious to any reading this who's guessing and who's speaking from experience.

The fact is, you haven't contributed one positive post to this thread; nothing but false statements, obfuscation, and attempts at misdirection. That doesn't really surprise me, though; I've noticed a trend to your posts over the years, and just to make sure I wasn't remembering inaccurately I did a random sampling of your posts. Arrogance, condescension, and negativity seem to be hallmarks of your history here, and I have no use for more of the same. You've just joined a very small group of FMers who have earned a [Hide Me] activation. Good riddance.

Sep 21, 2013 at 04:10 PM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · High frame rate flash Q

BrianO wrote:
Well, let's see here: you said that P mode and Manual flash aren't possible together,

I said nothing of the sort.

You said I must have been in ETTL mode,

I said nothing of the sort

More evidence? I just connected my non-TTL, center-pin-only Vivitar 285HV to my camera's hot shoe and -- with the camera in P Mode -- fired a series. You say that won't work, but it did.

I said that only your TTL trigger had worked and there was no evidence that the other triggers were TTL or otherwise. At least this test illustrates that the camera isn't restricting itself by requiring a return signal from the flash/trigger or a preflash signal return.

To take it a step further, I connected the Vivitar to the camera via a PC cord. Not an OC-E3 TTL Off-camera Shoe Cord, but a plain, 2-conductor PC cord into the camera's PC socket, again with the camera in P Mode, and fired a series. You say it won't work, but it did.

I said nothing of the sort

Glory be! I must have magical powers! Either that or you're talking out your ass. I think it's obvious to any reading this who's guessing and who's speaking from experience.

You JUST did those tests. Previously you were talking out of your ass. You posses no magical powers apart from in your imagination - the same place those things you thought I said must exist.

The fact is, you haven't contributed one positive post to this thread; nothing but false statements, obfuscation, and attempts at misdirection. That doesn't really surprise me, though; I've noticed a trend to your posts over the years, and just to make sure I wasn't remembering inaccurately I did a random sampling of your posts. Arrogance, condescension, and negativity seem to be hallmarks of your history here, and I have no use for more of the same. You've just joined a very small group of FMers who have earned a [Hide Me] activation. Good riddance.

If questions are false statements then I'm guilty. Until answers are provided then the questions remain. Your 'know it all' attitude (even displayed on the parallel thread to this), inability to question results and jump to conclusions prevents you from obtaining any meaningful results. These only occurred after I questioned you about them. That seems pretty positive to me, especially considering there is no detail provided to any other equipment used, and used in such an obscure way that no answer can be provided where possibly it would EVER be used.

Making up camera control settings, imagining and making up statements are entirely your own demons.

I still believe that theres more to this. No radio trigger is THAT bad. Maybe the OP will share his solution when he gets it?

Sep 21, 2013 at 06:12 PM

PatrickSweeney
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · High frame rate flash Q

Holy cow, I go off and have some fun taking photos, and I come back to this. Apologies to all who aren't involved, unless they are enjoying it from afar.

OK, my process, if it matters;

I set up, compose, take test shots in P to get an idea of the light, then once I have what I want (I take notes as I go) I lock it all down; manual everything. Focus, IS off, (camera on tripod) full manual aperture and shutter, and manual on the flash guns.

If it matters,the previous triggers are Yongnou, RF603, and it was my fault for not doing enough homework to discover it matters with high frame rates.

I now use Pocketwizards, III's, and they run with the shutter, full 8 fps.

Oct 01, 2013 at 01:20 PM

BrianO
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · High frame rate flash Q

PatrickSweeney wrote:
...the previous triggers [were] Yongnou, RF603... I now use Pocketwizards, III's, and they run with the shutter, full 8 fps.

It's interesting that the RF-603s didn't work at high rates. In most respects user reports have been pretty positive about them.

I use their YN-622Cs for the remote adjustment capability, and high frame rate is just a bonus.

It's good to hear that the PW +IIIs are working for you. From everything I hear they're excellent triggers.

Oct 01, 2013 at 04:46 PM

PatrickSweeney
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · High frame rate flash Q

The 603s work just fine for the normal stuff, one shot at a time, or one a second or so.

The PW III's rock. I just wish there was a hotshoe connection, and I didn't need to use the PC cord.

Oct 02, 2013 at 10:50 AM


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